Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[SixOfSpades]

When the future Food arc inevitably implements food spoilage (or, at the very least, makes dwarves prefer fresh food over preserved foods), that seems likely to become a huge time-suck for players. I mean, sure, food going bad is realistic as hell, and should 100% be a part of the game, but who wants to micromanage things like stock rotation and expiration dates every few game days?? It's called Slaves to Armok, not Slaves to E. coli. This is the sort of thing that, ideally, the game should be able to handle on its own.

Enter the Chef! Basically a Manager who only deals with food (and jobs that produce ingredients).
- requires Baron(ess) or higher
- must be a Master (or higher) Cook
- must have made a masterwork roast

Appointing a Chef opens up the Chef screen, accessible through the existing Kitchen screen. From here, you can:
1. Set min / max quantities for every type of edible ingredient. If the fort's quantity is below the set minimum, the Chef will order the production of more, triggering jobs like Butcher turkey, Press rock nuts, Gather peaches, etc. If the fort's quantity of a given ingredient is above the maximum, the Chef will order those ingredients (and others, if necessary) to be prepared for eating/drinking ASAP.
2. Place expiration limits on each of those ingredients (these would be automatically pre-set for you, but you can edit these settings if you wish). No more milk sitting in barrels for months, it will get used almost immediately.
3. Set min / max quantities of prepared foods & drinks, in each of 5 different categories: Luxurious, hearty, filling, humble, and deficient. These limits are rather fuzzy, as they are determined by the retail cost of 1 unit of the prepared food--which, of course, is dependent on quality. So your Chef might order some more Humble meals, but if your Cook is having a bad day you might get Deficient meals instead.
4. Set those same min / max quantities, but this time for specific types of prepared meals. Depending on just how precise the game lets you be, this might be "Filling fish stew" or "Filling skate heart stew with red spinach".
5. Another min / max setting, but this time it's for preserved foods. Horse cheese, flour, pickled herring, salt pork, canned peas, etc.
6. Finally, and most importantly, set a schedule for when the Chef will perform these duties. For example, you might have him check the inventory of all ingredients (option 1 in this list), wait a couple of days for the resulting orders to get processed, and then check the prepared foods (options 3 & 4) for what needs to be cooked . . . and then automatically repeat this process every seven days. There should also be a calendar screen here, to account for seasonal foods--for instance, your Chef shouldn't waste his time checking for fresh cherries in the middle of winter, and most jobs for preserving (aboveground) foods would take place in late fall.

In summary, the game provides so much food detail that immersing oneself fully in it would leave the player little time for anything else. On the other hand, largely ignoring the food complexity cuts off a very colorful aspect of the game, and leaves your dwarves to consume nonsensical food, like "roasts" made entirely of quarry bush leaves and beer. Having an automatic go-between supervise the production of a diverse menu, with realistic consideration for food spoilage & preservation, seems like an ideal middle ground--especially if you can customize the process to your heart's content, and if there's just enough random ingredients to keep things interesting.

[Ekaton]

If we're getting food expansion with expiration dates and other hindrances, we definitely need some automatization, especially in larger forts, but I don't think that those requirements are good - I don't think that you need a baron to have a chef, and I don't think that he needs to be master or made masterwork roast (I suppose you meant that as a joke), with more food he's more like an administrator than like a cook, so I think that different skills are necessary here.

Despite that, I'd say that there are some fine ideas here.

[GoblinCookie]

Given that prepared food is presently dealt with like everything else, the chef position is pretty much redundant since the manager does everything the chef does.  The chef really needs further expansion of cooking beyond the whole mass-production of 'ready meals' that we currently have.  A suggestion would be to have the fortress have scheduled mealtimes which the chef menu controls, the dwarves gather in the dining hall and the cooks (not just the chef) serves them all cooked meals which are made at that time.  With recipes we could control exactly what is being served and hence conserve food/plan food production accordingly.

[SixOfSpades]

I don't think that those requirements are good - I don't think that you need a baron to have a chef, and I don't think that he needs to be master or made masterwork roast (I suppose you meant that as a joke),

Appropriately enough for a Food topic, those requirements were intended for flavor. The word "Chef" evokes a clean & well-appointed kitchen efficiently turning out fine cuisine fit for nobility . . . any settlement that has yet to attain such a standard of culture and refinement must make do with just a Cook. Granted, it's hardly an important distinction, I just think it's rather incongruous for a "chef" to be one of the starting 7 (which means he's, what, an Adequate cook?), and preside over a dirt-floored kitchen ladling out greasy slops to sweaty miners who didn't even wash their hands.

There's a small logistical reason behind it, too: One of the Chef's jobs is to maintain steady levels of food and ingredients. By making the player perform that task themselves (in the first few years before the fort becomes a barony), we ensure that they get the hang of it before they can just hand the work over to the Chef . . . in short, the player needs firsthand experience managing food stocks, so they can better direct the AI.

True, there should be some early form of automatic food regulation, even for the starting 7. But low-population forts can easily get by with just the Manager, can't they, and do without a Chef until the settlement has achieved some class & distinction?

. . . he's more like an administrator than like a cook, so I think that different skills are necessary here.

True. Technically, the way I described the Chef noble is arguably closer to a real-world sous chef, who runs the kitchen and oversees all ingredients & supplies, than a chef de cuisine, who actually prepares food and sets the menu. Ideally, the Chef noble would combine both roles, largely because the kitchen (or indeed, any institution) should really be supervised by someone who can indeed walk the walk.

Given that prepared food is presently dealt with like everything else, the chef position is pretty much redundant since the manager does everything the chef does.

Let the Manager continue to be limited to orders like Prepare Lavish Meal (whatever that actually ends up being), while the Chef specifies a magnificent platter of cave lobsters with cow butter, steamed plump helmets with dill & lemon pepper, and asparagus with sliced almonds. Let the Manager continue to order Press olives, while the Chef will do so automatically when the olive oil starts to run low. Now, the Manager should still be able to oversee min / max quantities of fortress goods, even foods . . . he simply won't see the food ingredients on his Manager screen, and I'll tell you why: If the Manager and the Chef are the same dwarf, I really do think they'll be too busy to get everything done. Better to have another minor noble ordering people about, than risk having your food production get lost among the orders to produce trade goods, clothes, furniture, and armor.

With recipes we could control exactly what is being served and hence conserve food/plan food production accordingly.

Recipes should be an accessible part of the game from Day 1, yes. But I think the Chef could/should have an advantage there; maybe, while the various Cooks know all the recipes that they individually know, the Chef knows all the recipes known by any citizen. And/or his palate is so sensitive that he automatically chooses spices / sauces / garnishes that complement, rather than conflict with, the primary ingredients of a given meal.

A suggestion would be to have the fortress have scheduled mealtimes which the chef menu controls, the dwarves gather in the dining hall and the cooks (not just the chef) serves them all cooked meals which are made at that time.

Interesting. I don't currently see any benefit to synchronized meals (except for militia squads), but that's not a reason against it.
Another possibility could be meals (sort of) made to order: Instead of dwarves grabbing food from a stockpile, taking it to the dining hall, and socializing with their benchmates while they eat, we could have dwarven fast food: The chef (or whoever) has set a menu for stew, and the cooks have assembled the ingredients for 6 units of stew--the order sits suspended in a kitchen. Once the dining hall has gathered 6 dwarves who would like stew for lunch, a cook goes to work. The 6 dwarves socialize while their food is cooking (and while waiting for enough of them to trigger the order), and then sit down to a fresh, hot meal. (The longer a dwarf has to wait for a desired food, the more willing they are to change their mind and eat something else.) Flaw: Some foods take hours to prepare--bread, for instance, and some slow-cooker dishes that take all night. It would not be practical for dwarves to spend their lunch "hour" waiting for these.

[DeCervantes]

Actually having a chef position that allows to order specific recipes would be pretty interesting and even usefully now that dwarfs have so delicate tastes and complain that their masterfully roast is not a decent meal because it doesnt include goat. It could be a pretty cool way to allow us to order meals that satisfy as many dwarfs as possible. I am thinking of something like an option menu that determines which ingredients are used first when cooking. So if you order prepared meals and set blueberries a prefered ingredients all cooks will use blueberries in their meals if possible, so our blueberry lovers stop complaining.

[Jaron of Carthya]

I feel like having a chef as a noble could be good, BUT in a different way. instead of having to have a master chef to make masterwork roast or etc. why not have a chef allow new food recipes and such. instead of roasts, why not stews, stir fry, or even snacks! the chef can also train those who work in cooking or brewing allowing a great cooking/ brewing force in your fortress. Then you could try to make areas designated as restaurants just for fun and serve pure snacks!  imagine the snacks! THE SNACKS!

[FantasticDorf]

I can't wait to set my chef's to 'law enforcement' and military to roleplay a race of high consuming chubby halflings running after people to immediately put into the cooking pot back at camp (if we set halflings to caves as a 'lair' i guess) when cut into little bits.

> Attach habit - [eats people (besides ethics)] & [grinds bone into porridge] (with a pestle/quern/millstone-variant or something), though that is unlikely to work naturally due to tag conflicts

[GoblinCookie]

Let the Manager continue to be limited to orders like Prepare Lavish Meal (whatever that actually ends up being), while the Chef specifies a magnificent platter of cave lobsters with cow butter, steamed plump helmets with dill & lemon pepper, and asparagus with sliced almonds. Let the Manager continue to order Press olives, while the Chef will do so automatically when the olive oil starts to run low. Now, the Manager should still be able to oversee min / max quantities of fortress goods, even foods . . . he simply won't see the food ingredients on his Manager screen, and I'll tell you why: If the Manager and the Chef are the same dwarf, I really do think they'll be too busy to get everything done. Better to have another minor noble ordering people about, than risk having your food production get lost among the orders to produce trade goods, clothes, furniture, and armor.

Yes, the chef needs recipes to be in the game in order to make sense, at the moment all food production is unspecified 'ready-meals' made out whatever the individual dwarves fancy.  The chef could have an additional role in helping us control what our dwarves are making by deciding what recipes are being used.  This means I could tell the manager to order 200 prepared meals and the chef will decide exactly what recipes are available for dwarves to use, not merely the ingredients.

[crazyabe]

PTW

[SixOfSpades]

A suggestion would be to have the fortress have scheduled mealtimes which the chef menu controls, the dwarves gather in the dining hall and the cooks (not just the chef) serves them all cooked meals which are made at that time.

Interesting. I don't currently see any benefit to synchronized meals (except for militia squads), but that's not a reason against it.

A bit of clarification. There IS a benefit to scheduled meals: Happiness. Regular mealtimes means that a greater number of dwarves have a greater chance to select from a greater variety of foods (all of which will be freshly prepared), and a greater selection of dwarves to eat next to. Also, realism. The natural drawback to this would be the bottlenecking that would result when half the fort tries to eat at once, and the kitchens struggle to keep up with the lunch rush.
Overall, I think that sounds like a net benefit. But yet I think we'd be better off without it, at least for now. "Make the dining hall more like a real-life cafeteria" is a good goal, yes, but it's easily trumped by the far more realistic "Make dwarves eat once a day, rather than once a month" and "Make preparing a dinner take MORE time than is required to eat said dinner."

Actually having a chef position that allows to order specific recipes would be pretty interesting and even usefully now that dwarfs have so delicate tastes and complain that their masterfully roast is not a decent meal because it doesnt include goat.

Yes. A wise chef would mandate that desired ingredients be used no more than once in any meal, thus spreading them across the maximum amount of meals--or perhaps as only an added decoration on the meal (blueberry syrup instead of actual blueberries, for example, or bacon bits instead of ham), spreading it even further.

. . . instead of having to have a master chef to make masterwork roast or etc. why not have a chef allow new food recipes and such. instead of roasts, why not stews, stir fry, or even snacks!

I feel that Toady is likely to handle recipes the same way clothes are implemented now: Everybody knows the basic articles, but also with a good deal of cultural variation. So one dwarf civ will wear headscarves and eat burritos, while another will wear togas and love meatloaf. But some foods, like bread and sausage, are so old and so widespread here on Earth, that it's difficult to imagine any dwarven cultures not knowing about them. Similarly, all civilizations would know the more fundamental cooking techniques (how can you NOT know about roasting & boiling?), but more complex practices like fricassee and shake-&-bake would likely be randomized.
To reply more directly, I don't think a chef noble would open up new recipes . . . at least, not any more than an equally-skilled Cook with an equal amount of spare time & intellectual curiosity. Or a traveler in your tavern who orders a fish dinner, and gets to talking about this great sushi that he had last month.

Then you could try to make areas designated as restaurants just for fun and serve pure snacks!  imagine the snacks! THE SNACKS!

I imagine snacks will become an important part of the game, but largely because it makes logistical sense for dwarves who work a fair distance away from the dining hall (such as Miners & Woodcutters) to pack a lunch when they leave home. They'll stop by one of your restaurants (which, in this scenario, are more like mini-marts), grab a bagel, a granola bar, or some fruit, and munch on it during their workday break. Then it's back home to a nice hot meal.

The chef could have an additional role in helping us control what our dwarves are making by deciding what recipes are being used.  This means I could tell the manager to order 200 prepared meals and the chef will decide exactly what recipes are available for dwarves to use, not merely the ingredients.

Precisely. A wise chef would first tally which foodstuffs in the fort are most likely to spoil soon, and then set a menu that uses the greatest amount of those particular ingredients. Other considerations would be the aforementioned nod to preferred foods, and of course the need to provide for a balanced diet: Dwarves (who can afford it?) should always be able to choose a meal that includes protein, carbs, veggies, and maybe dairy. (Should some dwarves be vegan?)

Enter the Chef!

All in all, I'm less in favor of the idea of a Chef noble than I was previously. I still think that a single Manager would be hard-pressed to handle all dietary concerns on top of all other fortress matters, but since I've already proposed that the Manager (as well as the Bookkeeper and Broker) should be able to have deputies assist him in the role, that by itself would take care of the problem right there. Now, it would still be quite valuable to have an authority figure (possessed of both organizational skill and culinary expertise) automatically and intelligently set menus that make efficient use of the fort's resources, but the decision of whether or not to explicitly designate one of the Manager's (and/or Bookkeeper's) subordinates as a Chef should be up to the player. And the decision of whether or not such a designation would move all food-related listings and commands to a new Chef's screen would be up to Toady.