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Author Topic: Can someone help playtest a modded race?  (Read 2762 times)

NW_Kohaku

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Can someone help playtest a modded race?
« on: February 21, 2012, 01:16:52 pm »

So, I made a modded playable naga race on someone's request, and I've been trying to make this race be as generally balanced as I can while still making them seem distinct from the regular playable creatures.

As a sort of serpent-person, they have a big tail instead of legs (I had to dramatically change relsizes to make the tail reasonably large, and the overall body of the naga is larger overall than a human, although the torso is actually smaller because the tail is huge.)

So even though I've put the strength back down to "average", I'm still doing obscene amounts of damage with "tail slap" attacks (which are basically kicks relabeled), especially since I added [CAN_LATCH], which lets me basically grab someone with my tail and toss them around like a rag doll.  Typically, I can take off a hand with that, and rather enjoy throwing their detatched limbs back in their face.

Anyway, I'm somewhat sure this is overpowered, but I'm not really familiar enough with Adventure Mode (never having played it before testing this mod in this version) to make such judgements. 

As such, I'd like to see if there are some people out there willing to playtest this mod in Adventure Mode, because none of the other people who were interested in the mod really seemed that interested in it.
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Mithril Leaf

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Re: Can someone help playtest a modded race?
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2012, 02:53:33 pm »

I would be willing to give it a shot playtesting, I'm a big fan of adventure mode and can probably give you some decent feedback. I'm currently in the middle of a fortress, but I'll probably play your naga later today. I'll also check if it plays well with mods, should you so desire.
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NedeN

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Re: Can someone help playtest a modded race?
« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2012, 03:51:27 pm »

Well I messed around with a naga swordsman in adventure mode.. I thought it was a pretty good setup, I did notice that my naga started off with 1972 speed. The nagas tails are pretty powerful and being able to rip the limbs off was fun. Some creatures were able to break my grip so it wasnt totally overpowered. I did kill a grizzly bear right after spawning in three hits though. I faced a group of boogeyman without much worry. I ended up with a mortal wound in the end but it was still a simple fight. Heads were lopped off and arms torn and thrown back  :D I would say keep them the way they are. One question is can they stay underwater longer than other humanoids?
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Meistermoxx

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Re: Can someone help playtest a modded race?
« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2012, 04:01:06 pm »

For nerfing purposes, i suggest you think about giving them, since they are seaserpernts, some sort of dependancy on water.
I vision a kind of drougth system, like with hunger and thirst, but more like them being weak to fire and dependant on water for survival, as in a shower once a week, or an immence thirst.
On top of that, make them die if they are in desserts too long.

Whatcha think?
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Dwarfoloid

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Re: Can someone help playtest a modded race?
« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2012, 04:18:53 pm »

Even if you remove the [CAN_LATCH] you can still wrestle with the tail if you lie down. Trying to rip someones arm off while still retaining full mobility might be bit off. I'll give this try later tonight.
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Xotano

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Re: Can someone help playtest a modded race?
« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2012, 04:26:49 pm »

For nerfing purposes, i suggest you think about giving them, since they are seaserpernts, some sort of dependancy on water.
I vision a kind of drougth system, like with hunger and thirst, but more like them being weak to fire and dependant on water for survival, as in a shower once a week, or an immence thirst.
On top of that, make them die if they are in desserts too long.

Whatcha think?
nagas were more of snake-people then sea-serpent-people, tho if you think about the in game snake men then they do stay in water a lot.
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Meistermoxx

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Re: Can someone help playtest a modded race?
« Reply #6 on: February 21, 2012, 05:09:28 pm »

Well, when i hear naga i instantly think warcraft III
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Can someone help playtest a modded race?
« Reply #7 on: February 21, 2012, 05:43:08 pm »

I actually started with "Lamia", but when I put out the mod, it was at a request to create "Nagas".  (Lamia being originally Greek/North African myth, while Nagas are Indian and involved with Buddhism.  Apparently, in some parts of Asia, nagas are the weaker cousins of dragons.)

Anyway, as far as this mod goes, they actually are desert/mountain creatures that are strong swimmers because of their tails, but not inherently aquatic (they have a swimming bonus that makes it so they all know how to swim, but drown like anyone else if you swim under a bridge or something). 

Snakemen already in the game are underground river creatures and are fully amphibian, but that's a different type of creature entirely from these.

1972 speed seems very high, though... my adventurer is only getting 1500, and that's after training her up a bit, although she is toting around a bunch of gear.

I toned down the strength a little already, but I may ding speed some, as well.  I wanted them to be nimble at crafting and combat, but not at straight-up movement speeds, but without the divide between combat and movement, that's not happening.  (The point being that their snake tails are great all-terrain mobility, but slow in open space.)

I might need to drop endurance a little more, as well, as I didn't really ever notice getting tired, and having high combat speeds in a burst, but low endurance was supposed to be their unique flair. 
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Thecard

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Re: Can someone help playtest a modded race?
« Reply #8 on: February 21, 2012, 06:54:39 pm »

Seems like the speed difference is probably caused by individual attributes, was the dexterity set really high?


EDIT:
I was talking to the guy who tested it, because he may have given him really high dexterity, as I usually do to my adventurers.  Also, I like the [CAN_LATCH] on the tail, because then it's like a tail whip where it wraps around the enemy.
 I just tested it, since I found some extra time.  The tail-slap is really only useful when you hit, so I don't think it's overpowered.  I was able to take on a vampire as my first enemy, but only because it was in the middle of a crowded room of people the vamp decided to hit first.  (as a side note, it scared the shit out of me because I didn't really expect that the Cave-fish woman ranger was actually a vampire.  And I got spammed with about 10 or more pages of human hair amulets and human bone rings falling off of limbs.  Yes, the Human hair jewelry was the tip-off.)  I decided to test my naga against more undead, to see how slow they would die.  It didn't take very long, since the tomb was full of corpses.  Then, I decided to make a master kicker, to try and emphasize the kicking move. 
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
  So, I don't think that the Nagas are overpowered, except for the innate swimming.  That's the biggest advantage they have over the other races, but since they all really have some advantage (better equipment, faster movement, more settlements) I think it's pretty nice.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2012, 08:24:46 pm by Thecard »
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Can someone help playtest a modded race?
« Reply #9 on: February 21, 2012, 08:14:59 pm »

Seems like the speed difference is probably caused by individual attributes, was the dexterity set really high?

Not "really" high, but it's equivalent to the normal "+" type stat boost:
[PHYS_ATT_RANGE:AGILITY:450:950:1150:1250:1350:1550:2250]             +
They have [SPEED:800] as well, however.  All their other physical stats are standard strength, "--" endurance and disease resistance, and "-" recuperation.

Average endurance should be 700, so I'm not sure how much lower I have to put that to make the nagas get tired enough to make it seem like a real drawback for the being nimble. 

The race is larger than a human (85000), but the torso is actually smaller than an elf, since most of the body is in the tail's mass.  Nevertheless, the game doesn't really respect that sort of distinction, and it turns out you can one-hand pikes.  I was playing with a hammernaga before, and it was working out fairly well - tail slap to try to restrict the opponent's mobility, then body blow with the hammer a few times to snap the spine, then get the skull crushing kill shot to end it. 

Then I tried using a pike I picked up from a werehedgehog's den, and instantly heart shot one of the camels I was fighting in the courtyard of this fortress I was in at the time.  (Apparently, camels and ostriches live in forts now.)  Next camel, spine then brain.  Just plain being larger is a serious advantage (although I'm a Legendary Fighter at this point, so that helps).

When I was designing the naga race, I was making it with a picture in my mind of them using spears as their main weapon the way that axes are emblematic of dwarves.  I wanted to use a hammer for when I ran into zombies, but turns out I should have stuck with the spear.  Tail slaps are almost as powerful as a hammer, and the fact that I can wrestle with them make them slightly more useful.

I'm not sure on the removing [CAN_LATCH] thing yet - I don't really like that I have to have a legless creature have a "lay down" and "stand" posture to begin with.  It would be preferable if it restricted my own character's movement a little more, yes, but I think it's pretty much working as intended to have the ability for a naga to grab someone with their tail and bind them and then stab them a couple times.

The vulnerability of the armor not having full coverage hasn't really come up yet, either, as far as I can tell - I haven't even gotten any tail armor, and I haven't really taken a shot to the body part yet.  Which seems odd, since about 2/3s the body mass is in that tail.

I guess maybe I should just make the nagas smaller overall?  Their human portions will be pygmy comparably (basically half the size of a human), but that would help remove some of the overwhelming offensive power.

One of the things I wanted to ask for help on, though, was perspective - how powerful is a dwarf or a human going to be in the same general conditions?  How much do I need to nerf this to get this back to fair?
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TheLinguist

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Re: Can someone help playtest a modded race?
« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2012, 07:04:47 am »

Well, I rolled up a naga demigod, and had a few noteworthy encounters: wolves, a giant dingo, a human bandit camp, and some bogeymen. I tried to use my tail a lot, to get a feel for how it works out.

Overall, it seems like the tail is reasonably powerful against smaller enemies, when it hits, but fairly useless against larger enemies. I don't think that by itself is all that game-breaking, although the ability to one-hand pikes without penalty concerns me (see end of post for a fuller explanation).

The first wolf I engaged passed out from the first tail attack, although that seems to have been a fluke. The rest were at least able to withstand a few hits, but still seemed pretty easily damaged by the tail. However, I probably could've finished them faster if I'd gone for paw stabs with an iron spear, followed by a spear to the brain after they dropped prone. And it's not like wolves are hard for demigods - in 0.31, I usually played elven adventurers, and I was always happy to see wolves early on: they're easy to kill even with the starting wooden spear.

The giant dingo was the next major encounter, and seemed to basically shrug off tail attacks. My tail wasn't strong enough to cause any significant damage, and it wasn't a good grapple tool, either - the giant dingo frequently broke my grip. I think in that case, I would've just been better off using a spear and another weapon, and hoping that the spear lodged itself in the giant dingo's body (which, IIRC, is what I ended up doing, once it was apparent that my tail sucked against the beast).

The human bandit camp seemed to have gone smoother than normal, more like what I'd expect from the third bandit camp or so. I think they suffered nerve/bone damage quicker than I would expect for a freshly-made adventurer. So, it's easier, to be sure, although I'd describe it as demigod+ rather than gamebreaking. I think the main circumstance where it would REALLY matter is if you're facing a bunch of archers (you do NOT want to give them time to reload), or a powerful bandit leader (they dodge like crazy compared to the others, so if you're impairing their mobility on the 1st hit instead of the 2nd, you're less likely to suffer nerve or bone damage). I'd have to play with it a bit more, to be sure, though.

The bogeymen were as frustrating as normal, dodgy little bastards they are, although at some point I entered a martial trance. I tend not to play dwarven adventurers (elves were faster in 0.31, and humans have more fun loot in this version), so I don't know how the trance compared to normal. However, I think I still died about as quickly as I should have, given how recklessly I was attacking the bogeymen.

Also, I'll note that I tend to max strength and agility, and I got a bit over 1900 speed - high but not unheard of for an elf in 0.31, and sorta high for a human in this version.



So, my overall thoughts are that the tail attack IS a bit powerful, but not powerful enough to break demigod adventuring. At most, I think it would just make the early game a bit easier. The tail seems to be fairly useless on large creatures (and I bet it would be a bit weak on tough skin/armor as well), which are one of the main sources of challenge for demigods. You probably will be a bit buffer against early enemies, but really, I don't find most of those to be that challenging for a demigod anyway (with the exception of archers, who need to be dropped ASAP). Megabeasts, heavily armored fighters, giant animals, and the like are probably still going to be an appropriate challenge. I will note that the tail attacks seemed like they were causing nerve damage, chipping/crushing bones, and ripping off body parts a bit more than seems reasonable for a constricting tail; but, I did end up holding a severed wolf paw in my tail, so you could easily make the argument that this particular "bug" leads to enough awesome things to be worth keeping :). Now I just have to see if I can rip off a head, rather than just jamming the brain in...

One-handing pikes, on the other hand, sounds iffy. My experience is that piercing weapons in particular benefit from being able to be one-handed, because they have a tendency to stick in the enemy's flesh. When that happens, I've found that you get a hefty bonus to hitting with other weapons, AND if you have another weapon handy you don't have to waste a turn removing the one that's stuck in your enemy. Add to that the fact that spears are generally recommended as anti-megabeast weapons, and it seems like one-handed pikes has the potential to have a long-lasting impact on game difficulty.

Also, I should not that I didn't fight any significant zombies, nor any horses, both of which might be worth testing for size reasons. Horses are nasty because they charge you, move fast while fighting, and their hooves have a tendency to cause permanent damage - so nagas' increased size might make horses less deadly than they should be. And zombies, well, size seems to be important there. I've found that camel zombies are pretty nasty, and humanoid zombies are fine as long as you can kite them properly. I don't know if being a naga would significantly impact either of those, though.

So, as far as demigod is concerned, I'd say that the tail attack is powerful but not too OP, but one-handed pikes and increased resistance to being trampled might being a bit unbalancing
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Can someone help playtest a modded race?
« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2012, 10:09:23 am »

Thanks for the time you took to test and report back to me, it's really helpful, since I can observe for myself what actually happens, but I need someone who actually has experience playing the game to really know how different it is from what I should expect out of a dwarf, elf, or human.

I haven't found a necromancer yet, so I haven't done zombie killing, but I've found quite a few camels, which are functionally similar enough to horses.  I was pretty much constantly be charged and knocked over, and got a few bruises, but by that time, I'd found a bronze breastplate, steel faulds, and steel cap in my size, and my defensive skills were all rank 5 or so, and for some reason, my unprotected tail and arms never took a serious shot.  As such, I was constantly knocked down, and got some bruises to my arms going down to the bone, but mostly the attacks bounced off my armor or I scrambled away. 

I focused on hammers, and I basically could get a routine down where I eventually got accurate enough to hit pretty reliably by tail-grabbing someone on the arm, then going for a kill shot on the head. 

The problem is, I don't know of any way to really force pikes to not be two-handed without just outright making nagas either tiny or making their tails disproportionately small, compared to what my calculations of what their tail sizes should be, or just editing the vanilla raws to make pikes two-handable until you hit a size just over what nagas should get.  Doing the latter means that it won't play nice with some other mods, since I tried to make a point of not overwriting any vanilla raws with my mod.
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TheLinguist

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Re: Can someone help playtest a modded race?
« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2012, 12:39:06 pm »

Yeah, I think the thing to keep in mind is that most of the things which kill adventurers are still gonna be threats. Like bogeymen, arrows, and a number of large creatures.

That report on the camels sounds about right, you should be getting knocked down pretty consistently. I've found that hooved creatures about that size are more lethal, probably since camels just bruise you, whereas hooves can cause a lot of harm. But, for purposes of size testing, camels should do just fine :).

Now, as for pikes... I think the thing to do is to head to the arena, and try both spear-wielders and pike-wielders versus something like a minotaur or a dragon, with the nagas holding something in the off hand, preferably (shield, sword, second weapon of the same kind, that sort of thing). If the pike-users are having a significantly easier time, that's potentially a balance problem. If the pike-users just have a marginally better time, that's probably not too bad - especially if they have a few drawbacks, like low endurance.

It IS rather unfortunate for this purpose that pikes are just marginally larger than a longsword, btw :P.
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keyreper

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Re: Can someone help playtest a modded race?
« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2012, 07:12:29 pm »

hey i made a video of it, looks nice!
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Can someone help playtest a modded race?
« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2012, 09:20:53 pm »

OK, so, after some testing in the arena with pikenagas...

Testing shows that dual-wielding weapons is kind of dumb and doesn't really stop dragonfire from blowing your head or both limbs off in the first gout of dragonfire before you even get to the dragon.

Using a shield, however, does.

Pretty much, if a pikenaga got within melee range, they had a 30/70 chance of taking down a dragon.  They almost always won if I let them double-team the dragon and they didn't die in the first gout of dragonfire.

Interestingly, nagas are pretty darn aggressive even when they've lost both limbs, and seem capable of at least holding their own against a dragon in melee with tail slaps alone for a while before bleeding to death.

The next stage of the test was whether or not spear nagas with shields could perform roughly on par with a pikenaga.

Seems they can - it takes many more stabs to finally get a kill with a spear, but basically, just because I was giving them steel shields and rank 10 shield user, they were capable of blowing off the dragonfire almost indefinitely, running to melee, and stabby stabby the dragon until it was unconscious and the spearnagas just sat there poking it until it finally bled to death.

I think I can just try to leave it at not letting nagas have anything that should be a two-hander in their entity raws.  Sure, adventurers will still be able to find/buy pikes, but there are plenty of other insane exploits one can do with an adventurer, so I guess I'll just leave it at the next update unless there's something else that comes up.
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