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[NW_Kohaku]

If bogeymen are supposedly our own fears of the dark come to life, what happens when we no longer fear the dark?

They shouldn't show up anymore, right? 

I'm someone who makes a point of not turning on the lights unless absolutely necessary where I live (over saving electricity, mostly, but also just to prove I can), and I'm perfectly comfortable navigating my place in the pitch-black, even on the stairs, and have memorized the layout of where I live.  I once was afraid of the dark when I was younger, but I can now feel totally comfortable relying upon touch and memory to navigate. 

What if your adventurer could get used to the dark, and gain enough control over his/her emotions (willpower check?) to start making bogeymen no longer appear?  It would give your characters some reasons to have non-physical attributes, as well. 

It could also be a skill sort of like observer, where your character tells him/herself "I'm not afraid, that's just the shadow of a shrub. I'm not afraid, that's just a honey badger going into a rage at me for the 4329th time today." *The honey badger has been struck down* "I'm not afraid, that's just another werewolf, I've already killed dozens."

It just seems somewhat odd when your character is attacked by his/her own fears... and knows he/she has already killed dozens of them, so they can stand and fight if they fight smart.


Later edit:
After asking about this, Toady has said that bogeymen "may" be other-dimensional creatures more akin to Grues or Rumia. 

The point would still stand, however, that while bogeymen are, to paraphrase words I saw Capntastic use once, "literally added just to instill the notion that night time is dangerous" should not be used to make vampires afraid of the night. 

There are certain character types for which being active at night, even alone at night, make perfect sense.  I am thinking most specifically of "cat burgler" type adventurers, as well as vampiric or other playable night creature types. 

Even without it, powerful enough heroes that enjoy stealth will typically just mow down bogeymen for sport, and it makes less and less sense for bogeymen to be a reason to "fear the night".

[G-Flex]

It just seems somewhat odd when your character is attacked by his/her own fears

What makes you think they are?

[Capntastic]

I see bogeymen as a specific true thing about the nature of the DF 'setting', at least right now, where if someone is alone, in the dark, at night, these evil spirit guys are gonna kill 'em.  They don't seem to just be fears coming to life.  Either way, their exact nature is transitional, given they are part of the current crop of "horrible night creatures".  They'll get tucked in more properly eventually, perhaps being more dependent on setting info.

[NW_Kohaku]

It just seems somewhat odd when your character is attacked by his/her own fears

What makes you think they are?

Because they only spawn in the dark, when you are alone, and have no physical substance?  They disappear as soon as you step inside of a populated house, as well, when you can feel safe.  Or because they exist purely to instill the notion that you should be afraid of the night? 

They're basically the quasi-physical manifestation of the fear of the dark.

Because they are the result of a subjective reality, then changing your subjective view of them should hold power over them.

[G-Flex]

Because they only spawn in the dark, when you are alone, and have no physical substance?  They disappear as soon as you step inside of a populated house, as well, when you can feel safe.  Or because they exist purely to instill the notion that you should be afraid of the night? 

They're basically the quasi-physical manifestation of the fear of the dark.

Because they are the result of a subjective reality, then changing your subjective view of them should hold power over them.

Or maybe they're just, you know, creatures with no physical substance who only spawn in the dark and can't get into populated houses for some reason. Why are you assuming one explanation for their characteristics when no explanation is provided by the game and any number of them are plausible? I could pull an explanation for what they are out of thin air too, but I'm not about to pretend it's objectively correct via logical deduction.

[NW_Kohaku]

Because they only spawn in the dark, when you are alone, and have no physical substance?  They disappear as soon as you step inside of a populated house, as well, when you can feel safe.  Or because they exist purely to instill the notion that you should be afraid of the night? 

They're basically the quasi-physical manifestation of the fear of the dark.

Because they are the result of a subjective reality, then changing your subjective view of them should hold power over them.

Or maybe they're just, you know, creatures with no physical substance who only spawn in the dark and can't get into populated houses for some reason. Why are you assuming one explanation for their characteristics when no explanation is provided by the game and any number of them are plausible? I could pull an explanation for what they are out of thin air too, but I'm not about to pretend it's objectively correct via logical deduction.

Fine then, since a search for Toady's talk about bogeymen doesn't turn up any direct references, do you just want to ask him directly?  It's not like this is something unknowable.

[G-Flex]

I don't really feel like bothering him with petty questions about really minor aspects of the game's decidedly vague cosmology. In all probability there is no objective metaphysical explanation for bogeymen at this moment, but I wouldn't even assume that, because I don't know.

[NW_Kohaku]

I don't really feel like bothering him with petty questions about really minor aspects of the game's decidedly vague cosmology. In all probability there is no objective metaphysical explanation for bogeymen at this moment, but I wouldn't even assume that, because I don't know.

So, it's not important enough to ask him about it, but it IS important enough to shut down any discussion about what they are?

Anyway, I went and asked myself, so we'll know in a month or so when he responds. 

[G-Flex]

So, it's not important enough to ask him about it, but it IS important enough to shut down any discussion about what they are?

I'm not trying to "shut down any discussion about what they are". I'm saying that it's silly to make assumptions about it, because we don't really know and there's very little available indication.

[Urist McCheeseMaker]

I agree that it seems very much like bogeymen do have some correlation with a fear of the dark. That said.. I don't think they'd just vanish if you stopped believing in them. It's not never-neverland... But I could agree that a creature that doesn't fear them should be better at fighting them, to the point where the boogeymen can't hurt the creature and the creature can smack the bogeymen into a fine mist with ease.

Adventurers will still get tired and bogeymen will still be a minor nuisance. I can imagine their purpose won't be defeated by this, merely lessened slightly.

[Neonivek]

I do agree that it would make perfect sense if the Boogeymen couldn't manifest to those who do not fear the dark (Such as nocternal creatures).

I will say that I believe the dark is supposed to be a primal fear that cannot be normally overcome. As well that non-intelligent creatures should also not see boogeymen.

So yes I support that Nocternal creatures should not be visited by Boogeymen... or creatures that wouldn't fear them anyhow (as a reason why Dragons for example arn't killed by boogeymen)

[IT 000]

An interesting viewpoint that I had not considered. I always assumed they were some fairy-esque creature, like malevolent wilo wisps.

I agree with Cheesemaker though, I don't think they should outright vanish.

Perhaps if they are a manifestation of your fears, they should provide a noticeable effect on your combat capabilities. Instead of 'X strikes the bogeyman' it will say 'X flails mindlessly at the bogeyman' and you suffer some sort of damage penalty. After all, if you're scared out of your mind you're not going to be able to deliver a sturdy strike. Willpower should allow you to resist this.

[Neonivek]

Ohh I should also put

Since Boogeymen are both the fear of being in the dark, and being alone... (being alone in the dark)

Then Solitary creatures should also not be visited by Boogeymen. Only communal. Even if a solitary creature joins a civ.

Also we should have accidental Boogeyman deaths in world gen.

[Courtesy Arloban]

Maybe they're a manifistation of fear of the dark, but not neccessarily your fear of the dark.  As long as some timid prey shivers in the night they'll still exist.

[Neonivek]

Maybe they're a manifistation of fear of the dark, but not neccessarily your fear of the dark.  As long as some timid prey shivers in the night they'll still exist.

They are part of the collective consciousness. So long as you share that Primal fear, you can be attacked.