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Original amounts (chickens 4-15, crocodiles 20-60)

Something in between.

Modest Mod's current amounts (chickens 2-4, crocodiles 4-8)

Fewer than that.

[Igfig]

Dwarf Chocolate and Wanderer's Friend are very nice, but they both go far beyond the strictly necessary. I'm thinking more of things like spinning and weaving (to use the otherwise useless hair of creatures you butcher), food preparation (if you find a honeycomb, catch a fish, etc), and maaaaybe clothes crafting (so you don't have to spend ages pawing through boutiques and enemy corpses).

You can always add Dwarf Chocolate's reaction_adventure_resource.txt file manually, if you really want those reactions.

I've spent a bit of time with both, I suppose it depends on what you mean by strictly necessary - metal products is rare in shops in adv. mode, but somewhat more available in dungeons and keeps. Spinning and weaving definitely make sense and I think are already included. Unfortunately adventurers cannot retrieve honeycombs or fish, from what I can tell. The best you can do would be to have a reaction that transforms ye olde' lungfish into a prepared fish. Then there is leatherworking, stonecrafting, masonry, and so on. Most of this has been done in Dwarf Chocolate hence my recommending it - maybe just ask the mod creator if you can pick and choose the stuff you wanna use

Right: you can get metal items from dungeons and shops, so you don't need to be able to make them yourself. If you could, it would change the dynamics of the game; vanilla DF only grants you powerful weapons and armour when you put yourself at some risk (except for the odd situation of castle keeps). Stonecrafting and masonry are almost completely useless for adventurers, so adding them would be superfluous.

"Necessary" changes are ones that help the game achieve Toady's vision of how the game should currently work. We're filling holes here, not adding dongles. And since it's hard to know what exactly Toady is thinking, we have to be very conservative in our assumptions. Does that explain a bit better what I mean by strictly necessary?

(I think you can grab fish out of rivers the same way you can pick up worms and roaches (not positive though), and you can find honeycombs in old player fortresses. Having these extra sources of food is pretty low-impact, and it gives you a use for some things that were useless before.  It's not 100% vital, but it might be an acceptable tradeoff.)

In any case, I'll probably write my adventurer reactions myself. My clothing reactions, for instance, would probably just make a random clothing item of the specified slot and material, to save on space.

And who knows? If there's enough interest, maybe I'll add a module with expanded adventurer reactions.

Nope, you just install the module on top of an existing Modest Mod installation and you're good to go. Maybe you overwrote entities_default.txt? The relevant line in the file is "[PERMITTED_BUILDING:PEDESTAL]   added by Igfig - Pedestals module" in the dwarf section.

Huh. I must be doing something wrong, cause I have both the entity_default.txt entry as well as the building_pedestal.txt file. @_@ Should I upload a save? It's a custom workshop, right?

It is a custom workshop, yeah. Does the errorlog say anything that might pertain to problems with the raws? If not, then yes, a save would be handy.

Also much thanks for the plug! I do like the idea of 'fixed vanilla' DF mod, and will probably make more of these type of mods in the near future ^_^

My pleasure! I'm always thrilled to see more work in this area.

[Ari Lazarus]

"Necessary" changes are ones that help the game achieve Toady's vision of how the game should currently work. We're filling holes here, not adding dongles. And since it's hard to know what exactly Toady is thinking, we have to be very conservative in our assumptions. Does that explain a bit better what I mean by strictly necessary?

Makes sense - I suppose right now it's a bit hard to get a sense of the world from an adventurer POV in the current state of the mode, but this should be much better come next release.

It is a custom workshop, yeah. Does the errorlog say anything that might pertain to problems with the raws? If not, then yes, a save would be handy.

Nothing about it in the errorlog, although I did run into some clutter as a result of my joint mod... I should probably think about fixing that. Here's the save!

Edit: That reminds me, would you consider adding other fixes to MM such as the binary fix for raging military and .. I think the obsidian shear values? IIRC both are pretty out of whack and would fit right up MM's alley.

[Igfig]

Okay. I figured it out. The problem is that building_pedestal.txt doesn't have [OBJECT:BUILDING] as its second line, so it's not being recognized as a raw file at all. Add that line and it should work again... it might not show up until you gen a new world, though.

The next version actually includes a binary patched .exe, with fixes for the military problem and a bunch of other things.

Thanks for bringing up the obsidian shear yield, though! That is indeed a perfect fit for the Modest Mod. If you notice any other bugs like that, let me know!

[nomad_delta]

I just started a new game with Modest Mod + the Eternal Fashion sub-mod installed, and everything was going great at first but right around the time the first migrant wave showed up I started Bad Thoughts from some of my starting 7 dwarves indicating they were very unhappy about being "uncovered"...

I checked them and found that they were all wearing boots and cloaks but nothing else... this seems to be what all the dwarves came clothed in from embark, and I'd figured that was normal for the mod until my dwarves started becoming Very Unhappy over it.

Any ideas on what I might be doing wrong?

**EDIT: doh! never mind, I had read through most of the thread before posting but not page 9 apparently in which there is discussion about this being normal behavior with the Eternal Fashion submod installed, and one has to manually assign armor to avoid bad thoughts due to lack of clothing.  My posting is bad, and I should feel bad.

--nomad_delta

[arkhometha]

Igfig, thanks a LOT for this mod. This is exactly what I was looking for. Also, thanks a lot for all the other modders who helped in this mod. Also, thanks a lot for making it compatible with Ironhand's and MayDay tilesets. Also, thanks for the helpful forum member who pointed me out to this mod.

It seems the bolts rendering armor useless is corrected by the Broken Arrow mod integrated in your mod, but if I may, I'd like to make a few suggestions. Forgive me if they are already fixed, I readed the "features" and a part of the changelog but didn't saw mention to these things.


1.Melting point for zombies, so they can be melted by magma. This bug was mentioned before and don't seems to be hard to correct.
2.Wagon wood. Don't know if its fixable, or how you could do it.
3.Making hammers and other bashing weapons useful. I don't quite know how and I'm not quite sure is essentially needed.

[nanomage]

Igfig, thanks a LOT for this mod. This is exactly what I was looking for. Also, thanks a lot for all the other modders who helped in this mod. Also, thanks a lot for making it compatible with Ironhand's and MayDay tilesets. Also, thanks for the helpful forum member who pointed me out to this mod.

It seems the bolts rendering armor useless is corrected by the Broken Arrow mod integrated in your mod, but if I may, I'd like to make a few suggestions. Forgive me if they are already fixed, I readed the "features" and a part of the changelog but didn't saw mention to these things.


1.Melting point for zombies, so they can be melted by magma. This bug was mentioned before and don't seems to be hard to correct.
2.Wagon wood. Don't know if its fixable, or how you could do it.
3.Making hammers and other bashing weapons useful. I don't quite know how and I'm not quite sure is essentially needed.

regading hammers and maces, they are still lethal, though much weaker than hack and slashing stuff. I think that's kind of understandable: an axe really is a bit more dangerous than a blunt mace, isn't it?

[daveralph1234]

1.Melting point for zombies, so they can be melted by magma. This bug was mentioned before and don't seems to be hard to correct.

I defiantly second this. It doesn't even need to be an optional module seeing as, while it dose change gameplay, it is still obviously a bug/oversight. Besides, living creatures die so fast in magma anyway that the effect it would have on their physiology is mostly irrelevant (probably the reason for the oversight), but the undead defiantly need to be destroyable by magma. And besides, it would be nice to see that people can actually be melted by magma before death anyway, everyone dieing of blood loss just sounds silly.

As for blunt weapons, in reality a hammer is generally more dangerous than an axe, at least in contact with the chest. Flesh and bone is surprisingly hard to cut through, but a giant hammer will easily crush bones or explode organs. Not sure how this is handled ingame though.

[arkhometha]

Igfig, thanks a LOT for this mod. This is exactly what I was looking for. Also, thanks a lot for all the other modders who helped in this mod. Also, thanks a lot for making it compatible with Ironhand's and MayDay tilesets. Also, thanks for the helpful forum member who pointed me out to this mod.

It seems the bolts rendering armor useless is corrected by the Broken Arrow mod integrated in your mod, but if I may, I'd like to make a few suggestions. Forgive me if they are already fixed, I readed the "features" and a part of the changelog but didn't saw mention to these things.


1.Melting point for zombies, so they can be melted by magma. This bug was mentioned before and don't seems to be hard to correct.
2.Wagon wood. Don't know if its fixable, or how you could do it.
3.Making hammers and other bashing weapons useful. I don't quite know how and I'm not quite sure is essentially needed.

regading hammers and maces, they are still lethal, though much weaker than hack and slashing stuff. I think that's kind of understandable: an axe really is a bit more dangerous than a blunt mace, isn't it?

Okay, wasn't that sure about blunt weapons anyway. You just don't get that many people using or recommending it, expect to fight off zombies.

1.Melting point for zombies, so they can be melted by magma. This bug was mentioned before and don't seems to be hard to correct.

I defiantly second this. It doesn't even need to be an optional module seeing as, while it dose change gameplay, it is still obviously a bug/oversight. Besides, living creatures die so fast in magma anyway that the effect it would have on their physiology is mostly irrelevant (probably the reason for the oversight), but the undead defiantly need to be destroyable by magma. And besides, it would be nice to see that people can actually be melted by magma before death anyway, everyone dieing of blood loss just sounds silly.

As for blunt weapons, in reality a hammer is generally more dangerous than an axe, at least in contact with the chest. Flesh and bone is surprisingly hard to cut through, but a giant hammer will easily crush bones or explode organs. Not sure how this is handled ingame though.

Toady said himself it was a bug. I just can't find the quote. It's also non logical, as almost anything should melt in magma.




Also, adding.
Bug:5312 Undead reanimate too quickly (and forever) when killed in areas where corpses/etc. reanimate.
I don't know if it's a feature or a bug, to be honest.

EDIT: Also, I was toying with lashes. I noticed it glanced off in clothes(It should tear or pass through it) but it still could break a skull. It was a bronze skull, by the way.

[arkhometha]

Scrap all that, the best research I can do about heat and flame effects on the body is here.

Spoiler: Old Post (click to show/hide)

Okay, I added a melting point to skin, bone, meat, organs, feathers, scales, nails, hair and a lot of other organic things. I didn't add to wood (although I do think wood should melt) nor to the fire_template so Fire FBs still don't melt. Added boiling to some things like skin and meat, but it's only a few things related to body parts.
Here's the link for the fixed version, if someone wants it:
http://www.mediafire.com/view/?9w5n6gq9ib351hn

Tested in a scorching environment and my dwarves didn't melt, while the water in murky pools evaporated. I went to a desert who was scorching in the fortress mode but was listed as "cold" when my adventurer got there. Similar problem I have with embarking in places listed with multiple deep and shallow metals but when you run dfprospect, you don't get any ore. Well, I don't expect this bug to be fixed by modding but still needs more testing so I can see if a adventurer don't melt in scorching temperature.(It isn't supposed to, but you never know.)

Fixed, and heres some info about the changes. Also, check Edit2.
Almost everything burned at the same temperature as skin. Including bone. Now, things are separated in three classes:
Skin, hair, feather and related:
   [IGNITE_POINT:10508] 282ºC
   [MELTING_POINT:10720] 400ºC

Fat, muscle, internal organs, cartilage, nervous tissue, synew:
   [IGNITE_POINT:10522] 290ºC
   [MELTING_POINT:10738] 410ºC

Bone, tooth, nails, hoofs, horns, scales, chitins:
   [IGNITE_POINT:11080] 600ºC
   [MELTING_POINT:11260] 700ºC

I know it isn't perfect, and that every material should have custom numbers, but it's the best I got so far. Also, bodies will burn from the outside to the inside, instead of bone burning at the same time and temperature as skin.


I didn't test it, since I'm not on my desktop computer. I wanted to do some testing so we could have people boiling before melting, but I dunno if I will ever get to that.
I also don't understand that much of modding to know if clowns or other things that aren't supposed to melt will melt. Do they have a special tag not to burn?


And anyone is free to use this whenever and where they want without crediting me.

EDIT: Tiles directly adjacent to magma will be heated to a temperature of 10075. Scorching climates can reach above 10078 °U. I will take a look at necromancers reviving things too quickly too.

EDIT2: Found some data about temperature. Apparently, a cremation chamber heats up to 1000ºC or 11800ºU.  Since Stone melts at 11500ºU (833ºC) in dwarf fortress and magma's temperature is 12000ºU (1111ºC), I will have to set it lower than stone, probably 700ºC or 11260ºU.  Humans skin melts at 200ºC, that would be 10360ºU. So meat should melt at 250ºC (10450ºU). Bad data, human skin ignites at 250ºC or 10450ºU. But I will keep the original 282ºC or 10508ºU. Skin and eye will melt at 400ºC or 10720ºU. Fat will ignite at 290ºC or 10522ºU (the original was 10338ºU or 188ºC. The original values of skin and fat igniting would mean that fat would catch fire BEFORE skin, and that doesn't make sense. The skin in a body dries, catch fire then dries the fat, that catch fire then dries the bone, who doesn't catch fire.) and fat will melt at 410ºC or 10738ºU. Muscle, synew, nervous tissue and cartilage will be the same as fat in ignite and melt. Bone, tooth, nail, hoof, horn, shell and scale ignited at the same temperature as skin in the raws, and now will ignite at 600ºC or 11080ºU (the default was the same as skin. Skin doesn't burn at the same temperature as bone) and will melt at 700ºC or 11260ºU. Hair and feather will have the same properties as skin. Melting point is probably higher. Also fat should melt AFTER skin, not before. Still have to decide some melt point for hair, internal organs and see if things don't melt into warm or hot temperatures.

[Timeless Bob]

So I was perusing the back-posts of the "Something Awful" forums when I came across this http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3466523&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=185 from a user named "scamtank" sometime last June. 

As a summary, he claims that all default head sizes are small, with relative values making them about the size and toughness of an eyeball, which is why headshots seem to have the "Oops, you seem to have been slain" effect.  By changing the values, (referenced in the post), he has made headshots both more difficult to accomplish and allowed for skull fractures and concussive blows to be debillitating, but not instantly fatal.  I think he said that decapitation with a bladed weapon took several blows and that it took 3-4 from a war-hammer. 

Is this something that would make tantrum spirals less surrealistically "Fun", and Adventurer mode more realistic, do you suppose?

I've often wondered why dwarves don't die out quickly in worldgen, considering that they need at least twelve years to grow into a new generation, and what with goblins, badgers and hill titans roaming the world, how has the main civilization avoided sudden extinction from tantrum spirals for so long?

[nanomage]

he basically made skulls several times thicker and brain two times smaller, if i understand him correctly.
While his fix might be beneficial to game balance, I feel it's kind of rough and clumsy. Multi-part brain (so that not all brain injuries are instadeaths) and tougher skull bones seem neater to me.
That is, unless Toady has really miscalculated and the skull does have to be several times thicker - would be great if someone checks this.

[arkhometha]

he basically made skulls several times thicker and brain two times smaller, if i understand him correctly.
While his fix might be beneficial to game balance, I feel it's kind of rough and clumsy. Multi-part brain (so that not all brain injuries are instadeaths) and tougher skull bones seem neater to me.
That is, unless Toady has really miscalculated and the skull does have to be several times thicker - would be great if someone checks this.

I agree with you, his changes do just that, and I do agree it makes it rough and clumsy.
Toady has made some mistakes on material characteristics - I for one know bone density in DF is lower than RL bone and heat properties/damage/melt point is largely incorrect. For multi-part brain, there is the Nihilist's Brain Stem Project. For Tissues and body parts, there one of a med student, the San Diego's Realistic Tissue, and overall, the Grim Grimoire - The Realistic Commune Mod, that I plan to do a patch to be compatible with modest mod, if both authors permit, and when the new version (of Grim Grimoire) comes out. Also, some modders, Putnam and other guy, are just discussing the bone density/characteristcs over there to try and correct this issues.
(I still think an adventurer with superhuman strength should be able to break a skull barehanded, though).

[tyrannus007]

First off, thanks for this mod.
Anyway, here's a suggestion. There is a really minor bug in vanilla Dwarf Fortress where pretty much every human, goblin, and elf has extremely long hair. Seems like something that should be easy to fix.

[daveralph1234]

First off, thanks for this mod.
Anyway, here's a suggestion. There is a really minor bug in vanilla Dwarf Fortress where pretty much every human, goblin, and elf has extremely long hair. Seems like something that should be easy to fix.

This is presumably due to the lack of scissors.

[tyrannus007]

Technically speaking, it's caused by this

Code: [Select]

[TISSUE_STYLE:HAIR]
[TS_PREFERRED_SHAPING:STANDARD_HAIR_SHAPINGS]
[TS_MAINTAIN_LENGTH:1:200] missing from their entries in entity_default. The ts_maintain_length numbers can be changed to whatever. This topic deals with it as well.