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[Nyan Thousand]

Nyan, I will rue the day I ever meet you for a drinkathon.

Well, I don't drink often, but when I do, I prefer Dos Equis I DRINK. I think of it as making up for lost time.

[Wellincolin]

I admit I didn't express myself perfectly.

"More people die [from doing alcohol] because more people can get it".

So? Proved my point just right. More people dies (thus more lives destroyed overall). I don't care which kills quicker, which makes you feel worse or best, which has the higher addiction ratio. I just know that alcohol and cigarettes kill more than anything on earth and still, you say it is safest than heroin and cocaine. Is it, seriously?
Alcohol is socially encouraged. It destroys families more often than anything else. In my country we don't even have heroin or meth, what proves you completely wrong. Cocaine is the littlest of issues here too, I know people who are addicted and can live with it just fine. And I know people addicted to alcohol who can't. Yes, there can be the inverse and there is, but in much less of a proportion.

I did mispoke when I said alcohol isn't organic. I meant we don't drink it pure. I'm not encouraging anyone to use weed, I'm just expressing myself. I grab a seed, plant it, take it's very own flowers without any modification whatsoever, put them on fire and inhale the smoke, it can't get more organical than that. Cheap alcohol can bear several impurities making it even more harmful.

You have to see the big picture. I can guarantee you, that if you counted ALL lives destroyed by cocaine, heroin and meth altogether (that is including relatives, third parties which were prejudiced, etc) and compare to alcohol, it wouldn't be 10%. I actually believe it wouldn't be 5% but I may be underestimating it.

[misko27]

I patently disagree. Small amounts of alchohol (1 glass females, 2 glasses male, depending on weight) is actually healthy for you.

Now, you say alchohol is super deadly and kills more then anything else? Thats cancer. And billons of people have lived throughout history drinking alchohol without dying from it. The entire russian race, for example. Or the germans and their beer. Or the italians and french with their wine. Or the irish and their whiskey. Or the americans, british...

 And opium and heroin isn't deadly? You wouldn't say that if you've seen what it does. And uncommon? Only because of its extreme illegality. In the 10 yeare before the opium wars, over a million chinese became addicted.

[tolkafox]

I expressly forbid this kind of behavior! Drunk fortress, Bah!

The last time I did that dwarven children were fighting a raccoon in their bedroom. I still haven't figured out how the hell that happened, and I probably never will.

Not to mention the fortress layout made in my drunken state was superior to my previous design in max steps from bed to workshop (10, highest being my brewer), from workshop to associated stockpile (8, highest being my metalsmith), and stockpile to depot (13). Unfortunately it was aesthetically displeasing, I mean if you drew a line straight down any middle of my fortress you would be left with two shapes that couldn't resemble each other even if you were highly intoxicated.

[GoombaGeek]

I admit I didn't express myself perfectly.

"More people die [from doing alcohol] because more people can get it".

So? Proved my point just right. More people dies (thus more lives destroyed overall). I don't care which kills quicker, which makes you feel worse or best, which has the higher addiction ratio. I just know that alcohol and cigarettes kill more than anything on earth and still, you say it is safest than heroin and cocaine. Is it, seriously?
Alcohol is socially encouraged. It destroys families more often than anything else. In my country we don't even have heroin or meth, what proves you completely wrong. Cocaine is the littlest of issues here too, I know people who are addicted and can live with it just fine. And I know people addicted to alcohol who can't. Yes, there can be the inverse and there is, but in much less of a proportion.

I did mispoke when I said alcohol isn't organic. I meant we don't drink it pure. I'm not encouraging anyone to use weed, I'm just expressing myself. I grab a seed, plant it, take it's very own flowers without any modification whatsoever, put them on fire and inhale the smoke, it can't get more organical than that. Cheap alcohol can bear several impurities making it even more harmful.

You have to see the big picture. I can guarantee you, that if you counted ALL lives destroyed by cocaine, heroin and meth altogether (that is including relatives, third parties which were prejudiced, etc) and compare to alcohol, it wouldn't be 10%. I actually believe it wouldn't be 5% but I may be underestimating it.

Unfortunately, it looks like a lot of this is bizarre conjecture.

I don't have experience with any of this stuff, but I do get statistics fairly well. So, let's make a fun hypothetical example! Substance A kills 1% of its users. Substance B kills 10% of its users. If 1,000 people use Substance A, and 10 people use Substance B, then calling Substance B "less harmful" because only one person was reported to die of it (while 10 Substance A users died) is idiotic. If whatever the hell you smoke (or inject, whatever) became perfectly legal overnight, then way more people would start dying from irresponsible usage of it. That's basic math and I'm pretty sure it's correct.

As for the "organical" aspect, isn't beer mostly made out of four "organical" ingredients? When I went to Germany I saw plenty of "organical" fields growing that stuff. You'd think it would be hard for those people in the Middle Ages to put together all those breweries if they needed access to genetic engineering and pesticides just to put out a few bottles of whatever. Or is the magical organic power only released by burning, making weed much healthier in terms of organicality?

Most importantly, what "big picture" are you referring to? See the nice paragraph I wrote involving basic math, I think it explains why "only 10% die of cocaine, heroin and meth altogether". (And doesn't meth make your teeth fall out and feel bugs under your skin, while a pint makes you dizzy and somewhat lacking in judgement? I think there's a difference.)

[Hanslanda]

(And doesn't meth make your teeth fall out and feel bugs under your skin, while a pint makes you dizzy and somewhat lacking in judgement? I think there's a difference.)

This sums it up pretty well. Alcohol is legal, and thus can kill more people, because it is less dangerous. If cocaine was legal instead, and alcohol was illegal, you would be saying the exact opposite right now, but even more people would be dying daily of the 'legal high'. Yes, alcohol kills a lot of people every day. Alcohol is also the lesser of two evils.

[Wellincolin]

Okay, so if cocaine and heroin were legal and killed more, THEN they would be more harmful. I ain't here to discuss "possibilities". I'm here to tell you the REALITY.

Unfortunately, it looks like a lot of this is bizarre conjecture.

What I meant about 10% was the amount (i.e. considering alcohol harmed 10 people through history, cocaine and meth harmed 1).

When I went to Germany I saw plenty of "organical" fields growing that stuff.

They grow beer? I never knew you could grow a liquid.


The big picture I refer is the one where you idolize alcohol (the same you idolize arms, see the results right now) and it still kills more than other drugs. And you keep doing that because of the media brainwash.

makes you teeth fall herpa derp

Alcohol makes you beat your wife, your kids, crash your car and kill another's family. All that while keeping you alive to do that even more. Also while being encouraged by society, thus making it more potentially dangerous.

I know cocaine and heroin are the most harmful drugs to the user itself. Alcohol is the most harmful overall, I always said to include relatives and third parties. And YOU KNOW it is.

The chinese survived doing opium.
Several other survived doing marijuana. Hemp was the first plant to be grown by men ever. If you know history, you know that. Hemp is the most useful (also the most resistant) fiber existant.

There is no drug that could possibily destroy an entire civilization, this point is COMPLETELY biased.
I'm done here btw. You guys are right, you just aren't answering the right questions. If it is so obvious that heroin and cocain are the most harmful to the users themselves you should consider I'm meaning something else. I guess asking anything is too much to ask when talking about drugs, politics and religion.

[Kamin]

So... Has anybody else heard of/played Drunk Fortress?

[Wellincolin]

Thread derailment is the forum version of !!FUN!!

[Nyan Thousand]

lotsa shit

I'm gonna stop you right there, old boy. You can't just get up and say "Alcohol is worse than Heroin", because that statement is multitudes of levels of wrong. YES, Alcohol is more accessible than heroin. YES, drunk driving and alcohol poisoning and what-have-you have killed more people than heroin overdose. But I'm not going to let you go around and say that alcohol is worse than cocaine and heroin and meth.

From your statements, I can tell that you don't really drink. Maybe you've had a few bad runs with alcoholics. Maybe someone in your family was/is one. I'm not going to pry. But I can tell you this: you don't become an alcoholic wife-beating family-destroying bastard just by sipping some cognac. No. Alcoholism, like most addictions, takes times and is the result of irresponsibility. I said this in a previous post: I don't drink often, but when I do, I drink. But I'm not an alcoholic. That's the same deal with harder drugs, but the difference is that it's so much easier to get hooked.

I'll cut to the chase: Meth doesn't just hurt yourself, but it also hurts your family and your relatives, much more than what alcohol could ever do. And that's just meth. There is a whole cocktail of drugs out there that are worse than alcohol, and all of them hurt not only yourself but the people closest to you as well. They're all bad for you, of course; alcohol, drugs, pills and whatever else. But fact of the matter is, alcohol is lightweight compared to the other stuff.

Personally, I think you're just biased for drug culture because you actively partake in it.

[GoombaGeek]

Okay, so if cocaine and heroin were legal and killed more, THEN they would be more harmful. I ain't here to discuss "possibilities". I'm here to tell you the REALITY.

Unfortunately, it looks like a lot of this is bizarre conjecture.

What I meant about 10% was the amount (i.e. considering alcohol harmed 10 people through history, cocaine and meth harmed 1).

When I went to Germany I saw plenty of "organical" fields growing that stuff.

They grow beer? I never knew you could grow a liquid.


The big picture I refer is the one where you idolize alcohol (the same you idolize arms, see the results right now) and it still kills more than other drugs. And you keep doing that because of the media brainwash.

makes you teeth fall herpa derp

Alcohol makes you beat your wife, your kids, crash your car and kill another's family. All that while keeping you alive to do that even more. Also while being encouraged by society, thus making it more potentially dangerous.

I know cocaine and heroin are the most harmful drugs to the user itself. Alcohol is the most harmful overall, I always said to include relatives and third parties. And YOU KNOW it is.

The chinese survived doing opium.
Several other survived doing marijuana. Hemp was the first plant to be grown by men ever. If you know history, you know that. Hemp is the most useful (also the most resistant) fiber existant.

There is no drug that could possibily destroy an entire civilization, this point is COMPLETELY biased.
I'm done here btw. You guys are right, you just aren't answering the right questions. If it is so obvious that heroin and cocain are the most harmful to the users themselves you should consider I'm meaning something else. I guess asking anything is too much to ask when talking about drugs, politics and religion.

O_o

I could link you the Wikipedia article on beer and how it's made, but I guess you're right, what I was really seeing was beer plants growing delicious organical beer bottles right on the vine, possibly due to genetic engineering and guns.

And darn, I've been quote paraphrased. As for the bit about hemp being the first TRUE and HONEST plant, I'm going to call bullshit on that one because about thirty seconds of research tells us that most early farmers cared more about not starving to death and growing actual food than cultivating something that is useful for fiber and organically setting on fire.

Anyway, let's ALWAYS include "relatives and third parties" now. You mean all those people who have to deal with a crazy addict in the household, the people who get stolen from or killed so someone else can get their high, the people who suffer to make illegal drugs in the first place, or just the people shot by cartels? No, wait, I'm definitely sure alcohol is worse! Why? Because we idolize it! Now I thought that it was a beverage, but then the Cola Cult would have to kill me for heresy. Now, that post gets more incoherent as it goes on and it's hard not to make the conclusion that someone was high when they wrote it (and, even if being high turns Legends Mode into a laugh riot, apparently it doesn't do anything for your writing skills).

That's about it. Next time, try posting while in a position to understand how sentences work. My guess is that doing the sentence-multiquote thing got to be too much effort and then it lapsed into unfocused babbling about guns n' beer, which is somewhat depressing.

Anyway, sorry for the derail but I can't share my first-hand experiences here because there aren't any and can't be for another few years but I could try staying up really late and playing DF!

[Wellincolin]

I have been misunderstood all along the thread. I'll try to clarify as much as possible.

For @NyanThousand the only answer is that the facts are the facts. Yes, alcohol wouldn't be as dangerous if it wasn't socially encouraged and if it was harder to get it as it is with other drugs. But it just isn't. You can get it everywhere, anytime you want.

A funny comparison:

Poison A kills slowly and can make a person live the entire live through it, easily bought on drugstores.
Poison B kills quickly if not treated, get from drug dealers.

Which one will kill more?

@GoombaGeek

I apologized for saying alcohol isn't organic and I said I have mispoken. English is not my native language, it is VERY hard to express yourself when you have language barriers and you're discussing such a polemic matter. I often lack words to express myself (more than often), so this is why most of you are throwing stones at me nonstop.

Going on:

Hemp can be used as food. It is pretty effective on such, actually. More information on the spoiler, quoted from wikipedia (yes it is not the most reliable source but it is quite).

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Hemp seeds can be eaten raw, ground into a meal, sprouted, made into hemp milk (akin to soy milk), prepared as tea,[19] and used in baking. The fresh leaves can also be consumed in salads. Products include cereals, frozen waffles, hemp tofu, and nut butters. A few companies produce value added hemp seed items that include the seed oils, whole hemp grain (which is sterilized by law in the United States, where they import it from China and Canada), dehulled hemp seed (the whole seed without the mineral rich outer shell), hemp flour, hemp cake (a by-product of pressing the seed for oil) and hemp protein powder. Hemp is also used in some organic cereals, for non-dairy milk[20] somewhat similar to soy and nut milks, and for non-dairy hemp "ice cream."

Next, even considering cartels and everything, yes, alcohol is more lethal mainly when considering history. Have you heard about Al Capone? I'm sure you have.
Most of the drug-related death we have today are because of it's prohibition. Just like in Al Capone's time. Alcohol was prohibited and people still sold it, still consumed it. At the time, the propaganda was virtually the same as it is today for all of the (still) prohibited drugs. They will kill you if you LOOK at it, smell it, think about it, it's will rotten your body and make your soul completely useless, etc.

We live on a Reefer Madness movie. It is funny today, to see Reefer Madness, as it will be funny tomorrow to look behind and see that marijuana was prohibited. A plant. We're prohibited of generating a life.

I've been expressing myself quite badly on each of my posts, because of my illiteracy on english. I think all drugs should be legalized, because prohibiting it doesn't stop people from having access. Money spent on drug-enforcing should be spent on treating it's users, not killing them or putting them on jail (rather than a clinic).
I would rather not make apologia about weed, but I think it fits a completely different role on nature. It is indeed a completely misused plant, it is one of the most important plant on history and such fact is often hidden from people. The very first sailboats had it's sails made of hemp fiber. The first paper was made from hemp fiber as well. It grows quicker than most trees we grow for making paper nowadays, and still, it's prohibited because of it's recreational uses and for that only.

I don't like alcohol but that's just me. I don't think it should be prohibited, but people treat it like it was not a drug at all. No one did it here, though. I admit I might have been mistaken when I said alcohol is worse than other drugs (heroin and cocaine), rather, it is just the same.

[tolkafox]

My method for finding out how dangerous a drug is follows thus:

Has a team of american navy seals/marines been dispatched due to problems created by {insert drug here}?
If yes, drug is dangerous.

Not that I've done much digging, but I'm pretty sure no one has dispatched military forces to deal with drunkards.

Is there an ongoing war revolved around {insert drug here}?
If yes, drug is dangerous.

I think vodka may have had one in the past...

[Corai]

My method for finding out how dangerous a drug is follows thus:

Has a team of american navy seals/marines been dispatched due to problems created by {insert drug here}?
If yes, drug is dangerous.

Not that I've done much digging, but I'm pretty sure no one has dispatched military forces to deal with drunkards.

Is there an ongoing war revolved around {insert drug here}?
If yes, drug is dangerous.

I think vodka may have had one in the past...

That made my day.

[misko27]

To use guns as a example, to imply that handguns are more dangerous then automatic weapons because more people are killed by it, then you are insane. I could make the same claim about cars and heroin for christ's sake. Believe me, the disparity is not for lack of trying. People have lived with alcohol for thousands of years. If opium and heroin were legal, they'd kill more then alcohol has in a few years in a month.