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Author Topic: Broken Arrow - Fixed Archery Balance  (Read 51706 times)

Funk

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Re: Broken Arrow - Fixed Archery Balance
« Reply #15 on: September 03, 2012, 02:13:08 pm »
if we can build a armor piercing bolt / arrow that is less wounding than boardhead arrows.
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Agree, plus that's about the LAST thing *I* want to see from this kind of game - author spending valuable development time on useless graphics.

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Pirate Bob

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Re: Broken Arrow - Fixed Archery Balance
« Reply #16 on: September 13, 2012, 08:05:10 am »
Here are the results of running my analysis decribed in this thread on Joben's second set of raws:
Spoiler: Joben's Raws (click to show/hide)

The dwarves were wearing helms, breastplates, chain mail shirt, gauntlets, low boots, and greaves:
Spoiler: Bolts vs. Full Plate + Chainmail Shirt (click to show/hide)
As you can see, these parameters render candy and steel invulnerable to all projectiles, and iron provides good protection against some, but not all, metals.  Also, there is no significant change to deadliness to unarmored targets. 

Making steel invulnerable to arrows might be swinging things a bit too far towards making projectiles too weak in dwarf mode, but this might actually be a very nice parameter set for adventure mode, where steel is extremely hard to (legitimately) find.  Just my opinion though. 

Thanks very much to Joben for working out these parameters and for alerting me to his findings - I'd be very interested to hear more about what !!SCIENCE!! he has done in testing them.
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Scow2

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Re: Broken Arrow - Fixed Archery Balance
« Reply #17 on: September 19, 2012, 05:07:02 pm »
So the problem with bows and crossbows was that they were acting like Railguns?
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Pirate Bob

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Re: Broken Arrow - Fixed Archery Balance
« Reply #18 on: September 19, 2012, 05:50:37 pm »
Quote from: Scow2 on September 19, 2012, 05:07:02 pm
So the problem with bows and crossbows was that they were acting like Railguns?
Yeah, that pretty much sums it up.   ;)
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thiosk

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Re: Broken Arrow - Fixed Archery Balance
« Reply #19 on: September 20, 2012, 01:35:34 am »
I don't want invulnerability, but I sure am hesitant to send my dwarves to meet archers now.
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Scow2

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Re: Broken Arrow - Fixed Archery Balance
« Reply #20 on: September 20, 2012, 02:09:07 pm »
I wish the game engine handled crossbows better... Then it would be possible to make bow and crossbow lethality vary with the quality of the user and weapon for bows, instead of the damn things being equal between Mighty McStrongman the Archer with the Incredible Bow of Legendary Slaughter (How do I do quality symbols on these forums?) and Wimpy McGee the Bowman and a random stick with a string attached to both ends; and quality and material of the weapon for Crossbows.
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Joben

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Re: Broken Arrow - Fixed Archery Balance
« Reply #21 on: September 20, 2012, 09:52:15 pm »
Quote from: thiosk on September 20, 2012, 01:35:34 am
I don't want invulnerability, but I sure am hesitant to send my dwarves to meet archers now.

For practical purposes in DF fortress mode no one is going to be invulnerable.

  • Material matters (refer to most excellent from chart above from Pirate Bob).
  • The worst penetration rate for any standard weapon/armor material matchup is 10%
  • Even non penetrating shots cause bruised muscles, and break digits.
  • Your average goblin in fortress mode gets only a breastplate and helm so your militia still has lots of soft targets.
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Broken Arrow - A small stats tweak to fix unrealistically overpowered arrows and bolts.

My RTD games: Roll To Raptor (On hold), Dino Arena

Joben

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Re: Broken Arrow - Fixed Archery Balance
« Reply #22 on: September 21, 2012, 12:14:16 am »
Quote from: Pirate Bob on September 13, 2012, 08:05:10 am
Here are the results

First off thanks for running those. That's very interesting.

My numbers were basically calibrated using iron arrows vs iron armor. Then hoping the material properiets would sort the rest of it out. Some of this I hope to find supporting real world evidence for but some I probably never will (Someone must have tested bronze armor at some point for example, but who besides a medieval Lone Ranger would use silver arrowheads?)

I hadn't gotten even anecdotal results for all the possible match ups in DF yet, so that chart is great.

There are a couple things that have me scratching my head thought. Like Silver Bolts vs Iron Armor.
Am I reading your data right that all of your test projectiles made it though the armor?
I just watched a pair of iron clad humans bounce 64 silver bolts off each other with no penetration.
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Broken Arrow - A small stats tweak to fix unrealistically overpowered arrows and bolts.

My RTD games: Roll To Raptor (On hold), Dino Arena

mastahcheese

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Re: Broken Arrow - Fixed Archery Balance
« Reply #23 on: September 24, 2012, 01:43:57 pm »
Well, I just got my internet back online, and after reading some ideas, I think I need to get back in my mod shop.

Quote from: Broken on September 02, 2012, 05:43:21 pm
Maybe bolts should be divided in two types? bolt/wood bolt with the same size as vainilla and upgraded metal bolts, made with
metal and wooden/bone bolts, with a size aproppiate for a arrowhead.
I think I know of a way to do this, and I will get on making this, however, I might have some trouble with entity members outside the fortress using them, so I would still keep the current bolts, and just add [ADJECTIVE:solid] to denote that the bolt is, for example, a "solid copper bolt" and not just the tip.

Quote from: Funk on September 03, 2012, 02:13:08 pm
if we can build a armor piercing bolt / arrow that is less wounding than boardhead arrows.
That's pretty much what a bodkin head is, it's a smaller head, so it can penatrate armor better, but, (in theory, at least) should damage flesh a bit less.
I will work on making both bodkin-tipped bolts and flared-tipped bolts, while leaving in solid metal bolts.

I'm not sure how much of this will change the tests that have been done, but hopefully we should be seeing at least some more realistic ammo by the time I'm done.

...Oh, one thing I know I'll need some help with, while I can make a reaction to make bolts shafts fairly easily out of would, what reageant token do I need to use bones for this?
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Quote from: Toady One on March 26, 2015, 10:15:00 am
Might as well chalk it up to Pathos.
Quote from: GiglameshDespair on April 14, 2015, 06:29:49 pm
As this point we might as well invoke interpretive dance and call it a day.
The Derail Thread

Black_Legion

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Re: Broken Arrow - Fixed Archery Balance
« Reply #24 on: September 24, 2012, 08:42:22 pm »
I don't know for sure but I'd try searching for the 'bone blocks' thread, it's quite old but should be what you need. Good luck with this btw, I'm excited to see how it turns out.

Edit: found it the, token you need is BONE, use it like you would stone.
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vadia

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Re: Broken Arrow - Fixed Archery Balance
« Reply #25 on: September 24, 2012, 09:24:44 pm »
I found a cool article comparing longbows to mideaval crossbows. http://www.thebeckoning.com/medieval/crossbow/cross_l_v_c.html

This brings up the questions, which bows are we using and are the dorfs better at crossbow making than midieval counterparts.

With regard to which bows, I'd say longbows are fine.
With regard to crossbows I'd say dorfs are a bit better at construction.

If so, the arrow may get (a force of) approx 10 while the bolt may get approx 13.

One thing to think about is that our armor may be better than the dorfs' armor.  (superior-masterwork, perhaps)

Back in the day, the archers used (as far as I know) wooden ammunition, yet managed to go through platemail with long/crossbows.
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mastahcheese

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Re: Broken Arrow - Fixed Archery Balance
« Reply #26 on: September 24, 2012, 10:19:45 pm »
Quote from: Black_Legion on September 24, 2012, 08:42:22 pm
I don't know for sure but I'd try searching for the 'bone blocks' thread, it's quite old but should be what you need. Good luck with this btw, I'm excited to see how it turns out.

Edit: found it the, token you need is BONE, use it like you would stone.
Woo, thanks, this helps a lot.

An update on the editting process, I'm still in testing, having some problems with material identifiers working, and I, at first, had the bolt heads as a tool class object, had to change it to an ammo class object with a firing class of NONE just so it would stack right, so Urist McHauler isn'y hauling 25 individual bolt heads to a pile.

Also, lol, forgot to make it so that the number of arrowheads produced in a reaction is based off the number I specify, and not the actual size of the metal bar TIMES the number i specify, preliminary testing ended up with a dwarf having 9840 masterwork arrowheads, not even counting the others, after only two job orders of bolt head production. Although I must say, making a reaction that gives you aroung 30,000 ammunition and a legendary weaponsmith after only two attempts is pretty amusing.
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Quote from: Toady One on March 26, 2015, 10:15:00 am
Might as well chalk it up to Pathos.
Quote from: GiglameshDespair on April 14, 2015, 06:29:49 pm
As this point we might as well invoke interpretive dance and call it a day.
The Derail Thread

mastahcheese

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Re: Broken Arrow - Fixed Archery Balance
« Reply #27 on: September 24, 2012, 11:50:14 pm »
OK, I found out that bone is not actually a valid item token, I tried toying around with CORPSEPIECE and the [USE_ANY_BONE] token, or whatever it's actually called, and I still have no success. Although I did end up with bolts that used nervous tissue and hooves as components.

Once I get bone bolts working, I will be officially finished with testing, and will release my results to you all to test it yourselves.

There are now a TON of reactions for this, I made both bodkin and flared tips, and because there is no reageant token to only select weapon-grade metals, I had to make a custom reaction for every single vanilla DF metal that supports ammo production, including silver, for both bodkin heads and flared heads.

Due to this large number of reactions, It cluttered up the craftshop's screen, so I made a custom building that all of the new ammo production will take place in. It needs a fire-safe build material, because arrowheads still need fuel.
However, each bar of metal will produce 4 stacks of 25 arrowheads, so 4 times as much ammo for the cost of metal and fuel, which seems fair to me because crossbows are no longer overpowering.
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Oh look, I have a steam account.
Quote from: Toady One on March 26, 2015, 10:15:00 am
Might as well chalk it up to Pathos.
Quote from: GiglameshDespair on April 14, 2015, 06:29:49 pm
As this point we might as well invoke interpretive dance and call it a day.
The Derail Thread

daveralph1234

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Re: Broken Arrow - Fixed Archery Balance
« Reply #28 on: September 25, 2012, 07:19:37 am »
 
Quote from: vadia on September 24, 2012, 09:24:44 pm
I found a cool article comparing longbows to mideaval crossbows.
http://www.thebeckoning.com/medieval/crossbow/cross_l_v_c.html
I just looked through this and and thought I should mention the draw weight of the longbows mentioned is for the most part way off. It's been estimated that the draw weight of medieval longbows/warbows used in combat was on average greater than 100lbs, with the higher end going above 160lbs. This may sound extreme, but English longbowmen would have been training their entire lives, not to mention the strength gained by all the manual labor people used to perform.

Also
Quote from: vadia on September 24, 2012, 09:24:44 pm
One thing to think about is that our armor may be better than the dorfs' armor.  (superior-masterwork, perhaps)
er....What? Arn't Dwarves the ultimate experts in metalsmithing? I would say, by comparison, our best armors would have been 'well-crafted' at best. Although that's largely opinional.

I will mention though that even the lower poundage, modern English longbows can pierce steel armor at close range when equiped with traditional armor pirceing heads.

Longbows, as well as crossbows, historically, were terrifyingly powerful weapons. (Although not quite as terrifying as they are in vanilla Dwarf Fortress)
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Pirate Bob

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Re: Broken Arrow - Fixed Archery Balance
« Reply #29 on: September 25, 2012, 01:40:20 pm »
Quote from: Joben on September 21, 2012, 12:14:16 am
Quote from: Pirate Bob on September 13, 2012, 08:05:10 am
Here are the results

There are a couple things that have me scratching my head thought. Like Silver Bolts vs Iron Armor.
Am I reading your data right that all of your test projectiles made it though the armor?
I just watched a pair of iron clad humans bounce 64 silver bolts off each other with no penetration.
Sorry - I just noticed this today.  It seems like the "show new replies to your posts" thing doesn't work well for me or something.  Probably I just can't read... :P

First, I used dwarves in my tests, and I have not yet checked if the creature used makes a difference.  It's possible that it does, as armor parameters are determined based on creature size.  I hope to check this carefully soon.

It also depends on what you mean by "no penetration".  I'd have to look at my logs carefully, but I suspect that most of what I was getting was chipping/fracturing/bruising things through the armor.  The bolts may not have been penetrating in the sense of cutting right through, but instead doing blunt damage through the armor.  I've found that silver bolts do a lot of blunt damage in this way, and are actually the best choice against high end armor.  In over 24,000 hits, I did not record a single "deflection" off of armor, so if you are seeing actual deflections, then something is very different.  It is possible (although somewhat unlikely based on my results) that you would see no significant damage in 64 hits. (Also are you recording hits or shots, as they might have missed a largish fraction of the time?)

If you want I can post the log of silver vs. iron for you somewhere - maybe DFFD?  I will also take a careful look at it to make sure nothing looks funny when I get home (i.e. the bolt/armor materials are correct).  Maybe I can also rerun using humans to see if anything changes.
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