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[Zrk2]

Would you like the name of one of my cards? Assuming that your card is beneficial, I see no reason not to give you it. If you steal cards or remove them from my hand, however, I'd prefer not to give them to you (Or maybe I would, it depends on whether you'll use them for the benefit of town).

Why the hell not? I'll be going off of guesswork and hunches for the most part, since even if I have solid scum picks I still won't know much about what cards do. Some of my cards that sound the most powerful are actually rather less potent.

Mod, will the title always contain a card-py pun?

Well, do you need a creature card?

I'm not sure what you mean here.

Zrk2:

Zrk2: How important do you think cards and card names will be in this game?

Very. Several of my cards require the names of other cards in order to work.

Rolefishing intent detected.  Likelyhood of scum- high.

Uh huh. Cool story, bro.

TolyK:

TolyK: As town, would you rather have a 5/1 creature or a 1/5 creature? As scum?

I'd rather have a 1/5 creature as town, since I'd prefer to survive and have my other cards do something. As scum... I'm not sure. It'd probably be better to have a 5/1 since you want to hit 'em hard and try to kill the others faster, I guess.

Answer indicates a strong sense of self-preservation- scum candidate noted.

What a crock. Town wants to live too so they can find scum. This is a really weak connection and you can do better. If he picked the other wouldn't that make him a scum for wanting to go on the offensive and hurt others?

EBYODP: The questions before the "Next is" are answered already. I now know I'm not the only one affected, and likely there are other body parts lying around. Not quite sure why I asked only Zrk2. _{I think it was because I wanted to make it seem like I knew he was involved and would more likely get the truth. But that's just something that was in the back of my mind, and probably doesn't make sense. :Р}

No legs, no arms, no body parts at all.

Furthermore I am town. Come at me, bro.

Re: Wuba, your idea of all working together falls apart because it will let the scum worm into the town strategy and ruin it. We are stuck working as individuals until such time as we know what is what. Or do you have a plan to circumvent this?

[Toaster]

TolyK:
Do you mean this left leg?

Left Leg of the Forbidden One?

If there is someone that is stealing cards that is hiding those around, they're probably a SK-type who can steal them back.  If so, you should probably not claim having one.  To repeat:

If you had a card stolen and replaced with a forbidden body part, you probably shouldn't claim as such.

Why?  In Yugioh, If anyone has all five of them in their hand, they win instantly.  I imagine something similar would happen here.  The last thing we want that person to know is where the cards are.


Web (and Think):

That can't be true. Otherwise, you'd accidentally hammer. Yet, I am sure I can find posts of your relating to your vote and the remaining number of votes to hammer.

Reaching for questions... on the first Day... Man, okay.

Also, the better question is why haven't you stated a sentence to check? I mean, even if there is a .0001% chance of a truth-teller, would you not make such a sentence? And, undoubtably, there is at least a 1 in 1000000, is there not? And I figured you'd at least try to state something like that without provocation. Maybe you're just not trying. Is that what we're supposed to think?

To be fair, I'm used to non-hammer games.

I am town.

You didn't answer my question, still.


Hapah:

Hapah:  Let's say you found the case solid, but not overwhelming like your own case against UI.  Would you change your vote?

If my case was overwhelming, I wouldn't be behind on my suspect by three votes. The others must see something I don't, or I've done a very poor job of articulating my argument.

Fair enough.


Tiruin:

Toaster:

TolyK: As town, would you rather have a 5/1 creature or a 1/5 creature? As scum?

I'd rather have a 1/5 creature as town, since I'd prefer to survive and have my other cards do something. As scum... I'm not sure. It'd probably be better to have a 5/1 since you want to hit 'em hard and try to kill the others faster, I guess.

Answer indicates a strong sense of self-preservation- scum candidate noted.

How does having a defense oriented creature give an indication of scuminess? How does self-preservation shove aside the notion of being a townie?

A townie's only job is to find scum.  Not to survive, but to find scum.


Zrk2:

TolyK:

TolyK: As town, would you rather have a 5/1 creature or a 1/5 creature? As scum?

I'd rather have a 1/5 creature as town, since I'd prefer to survive and have my other cards do something. As scum... I'm not sure. It'd probably be better to have a 5/1 since you want to hit 'em hard and try to kill the others faster, I guess.

Answer indicates a strong sense of self-preservation- scum candidate noted.

What a crock. Town wants to live too so they can find scum. This is a really weak connection and you can do better. If he picked the other wouldn't that make him a scum for wanting to go on the offensive and hurt others?

-snip-

Re: Wuba, your idea of all working together falls apart because it will let the scum worm into the town strategy and ruin it. We are stuck working as individuals until such time as we know what is what. Or do you have a plan to circumvent this?

Hi scum.  No, I'd be satisfied with the other answer, but thanks for trying to put words in my mouth.

Also, Web knows what he's talking about.  Town coordination usually works, and it's because the scum aren't given room for error.  If they follow along, they're not forwarding their own plans.

[TolyK]

That is it, yes. Thanks for clearing that out.
I need to figure out what to do with it...

(See Wuba, I was kinda right )

And now sleepytimes.

[Bookthras]

Think:

Book: Let's say you have a jack of all suits (get it?): one-shot kill, one-shot inspect, one-shot protect, one-shot block. How would you prioritize the four abilities? Which would you use actively and which would you save for particular situations?

I'd probably fire off the protect N1 if I'm pretty sure a person is town and may be targeted, or the inspect if I'm less sure. The block and kill would be once I'm pretty sure a person is scum, depending on how sure I am and how likely I think that person would do the kill. Circumstances, of course, would impact any of these decisions.


Toaster:

If there is someone that is stealing cards that is hiding those around, they're probably a SK-type who can steal them back. [...] Why?  In Yugioh, If anyone has all five of them in their hand, they win instantly.  I imagine something similar would happen here.  The last thing we want that person to know is where the cards are.

This is good insight, people should heed that advice. I was not familiar with the background, but perusing that wiki link lead me here: Forbidden One. Yes, it's an automatic win, and we don't want that.

Also, Web knows what he's talking about.  Town coordination usually works, and it's because the scum aren't given room for error.  If they follow along, they're not forwarding their own plans.

Not quite: web's advice is worth taking into consideration if he's town, but dangerous otherwise. If we allow Town to be coordinated by scum, it's scum's plan that are forwarded, not town's. You clearly know this, and there is an extremely obvious example: Think's BSER, where both you and he were scum, and led town to follow the scum's plan. Your glossing over this and lending credence to his trap make me think you are likely scum, Toaster.


But I'm getting ahead of myself. Wuba:

In short, your mindset will lose town the game. But, if you're okay with that, then I will gladly vote to lynch you. Would you like to reconsider your answer?[...]
If you steal cards or remove them from my hand, however, I'd prefer not to give them to you (Or maybe I would, it depends on whether you'll use them for the benefit of town).
I am not scum. In case any of you truth-testers be out there. Even if I'm probably going to die tonight. [..] I've nothing to hide. They may test my sentence thoroughly because I am not scum.[...]
However, it is not my job to sit about and declare victory after finding one scum. We must all be ever vigilant.

I find this amount of Town flag waving excessive even by your standards. Oh behold! The saviour of the Town! He has nothing to hide, will tell you his cards if you'll use them for the benefit of Town! Hail the Finder of more than one scum!

Bullshit. You are scum, and this is just posturing.

Also, the better question is why haven't you stated a sentence to check? I mean, even if there is a .0001% chance of a truth-teller, would you not make such a sentence? And, undoubtably, there is at least a 1 in 1000000, is there not?

I say this is an utter red herring. Either you know there is no truth teller (say because you sent in such a card but Leafsnail disallowed it), or it's a card you have yourself. By making a big deal out of "a .0001% chance" as you've said, you're deflecting people's attention. I'll play: I am not scum. But I think this is not you actually caring that there's a truth teller, but you stating you are not scum knowing there isn't, but propping up that strawman to give your denial the appearance of credibility.

Seriously, guys. What is this? This "Do whatever you want" mentality. There's a reason the "Do what I tell you" mentality works. There's a reason the "All follow the plan" mentality works. Likewise, there is a reason the "Multiple separate plans" mentality FAILS.

I'll tell you what this is: fuck you. "Do what I tell you"? Who the fuck are you? You are the fucker that is yelling he's Town at the top of his lungs so they can lead the town down a plan that dooms it. How did it work last time? "Hey all, let's do a D1 mass claim! It'll be good for Town, for realz! Yeah!"

No, there is no reason whatsoever to say "the 'all follow the plan' mentality works." It hasn't been shown to work when initiated by a player of uncertain alignment on D1. Sure, come D3 or so, with some data, flips, actions and whatnot, the pieces may be fitted together and a plan then evolve from consensus, but this "y'all shut up and do what I say" has never worked. It'd be foolish to take you at your word, and those who cheer for it (like Toaster) are likely to be invested in the town's downfall.

Wuba, you are scum.

[Zrk2]

Also, Web knows what he's talking about.  Town coordination usually works, and it's because the scum aren't given room for error.  If they follow along, they're not forwarding their own plans.

Okay, I suppose that makes sense. Now how do you propose we work together?

[Hapah]

Life is life, post tonight.

[Urist Imiknorris]

web:

How on Earth am I overthinking the question? It's a stupid question. I'm trying to make a question that matters. Here's a good one for you:

Indeed. It's a stupid question. You spent most of a post explaining how it was stupid. Why?

Why do you care about how much I care about what ANYONE asks? If, indeed, it is bad for someone to care about who says what, then why are you concerned over what I said? Do you see the underlying hypocrisy? Or do you not? Because it seems as though public record means nothing to you. I'm free to question anyone about anything they've said, regardless of the recipient. In fact, it should be encouraged, so that people are watching people. No one is allowed to ask stupid question in my game unopposed.

I care because I want to know why you care as much as you do. What purpose does your attention serve?

As for your answer, I highly disagree with it. You're selfishly tunnelling someone for your own gain. You've given considerable lack of listening to anyone but yourself. In short, your mindset will lose town the game. But, if you're okay with that, then I will gladly vote to lynch you. Would you like to reconsider your answer?

I am? How did you get me tunneling out of that?

What you want to do is to get me to believe you. This game is an exercise in trust, and figuring out when, where, and how people lie. It's why town never lies: If you tell one lie, what stops people from thinking you're telling another?

This is a pile of shit. Mafia is not an exercise in trust, it is in fact the exact opposite. Nobody can be trusted, least of all people like you who seem to want the town's trust more than you want to find scum. And what's this "town never lies" bullshit? I will point you to Roguelike Mafia 4, wherein Hapah fakeclaimed an Amulet of Preservation that was in fact a Ring of Warning, as well as the goddamn Brooch of the Phoenix which nobody knew about until postgame. Town lying is entirely possible.

I am town, and my vote is staying.

Toaster: Yes, I would, but I wouldn't be likely to act on them unless they were stronger than my own case.

Think: In that situation, I'd want creatures. Big creatures.

TolyK, Deathsword: What cards did you have stolen?

[webadict]

But I'm getting ahead of myself. Wuba:

In short, your mindset will lose town the game. But, if you're okay with that, then I will gladly vote to lynch you. Would you like to reconsider your answer?[...]
If you steal cards or remove them from my hand, however, I'd prefer not to give them to you (Or maybe I would, it depends on whether you'll use them for the benefit of town).
I am not scum. In case any of you truth-testers be out there. Even if I'm probably going to die tonight. [..] I've nothing to hide. They may test my sentence thoroughly because I am not scum.[...]
However, it is not my job to sit about and declare victory after finding one scum. We must all be ever vigilant.

I find this amount of Town flag waving excessive even by your standards. Oh behold! The saviour of the Town! He has nothing to hide, will tell you his cards if you'll use them for the benefit of Town! Hail the Finder of more than one scum!

Bullshit. You are scum, and this is just posturing.

I don't have anything to hide, and if someone requires a card to do something, then why would I stop it? You've failed your own task: to show I'm scum. Your argument is what exactly? That I'm too Town? Why would I do this as scum? I mean, I haven't even voted yet. There's really no point to make myself a focal point without voting like that. It'd be far too big of a risk. But, that proves nothing, really. Exactly like your argument, except mine makes more sense.

Also, the better question is why haven't you stated a sentence to check? I mean, even if there is a .0001% chance of a truth-teller, would you not make such a sentence? And, undoubtably, there is at least a 1 in 1000000, is there not?

I say this is an utter red herring. Either you know there is no truth teller (say because you sent in such a card but Leafsnail disallowed it), or it's a card you have yourself. By making a big deal out of "a .0001% chance" as you've said, you're deflecting people's attention. I'll play: I am not scum. But I think this is not you actually caring that there's a truth teller, but you stating you are not scum knowing there isn't, but propping up that strawman to give your denial the appearance of credibility.

I only brought it up as an off-chance. So... knowing this... you're saying I knew there was no truth-teller? I'm not sure how you justify your vote here, because, again, you proved nothing. I've never used that as proof I'm town. I don't think it is. I do believe the lack of saying it by Toaster is anti-Town, though.

I'm also starting to wonder where the rumor of me have telepathy or future-sight came from.

Seriously, guys. What is this? This "Do whatever you want" mentality. There's a reason the "Do what I tell you" mentality works. There's a reason the "All follow the plan" mentality works. Likewise, there is a reason the "Multiple separate plans" mentality FAILS.

I'll tell you what this is: fuck you. "Do what I tell you"? Who the fuck are you? You are the fucker that is yelling he's Town at the top of his lungs so they can lead the town down a plan that dooms it. How did it work last time? "Hey all, let's do a D1 mass claim! It'll be good for Town, for realz! Yeah!"

You just took that whole thing completely wrong, and it makes you look like a douchebag. The only thing I'm telling people to do is to not screw up. I'm not telling them how to vote, how to action, or how to do anything that compromises the town. I DID say that when you follow a leader or work together, you are more likely to win. This isn't an opinion. It's pretty easy to prove.

So, clearly, you're mistaken.

No, there is no reason whatsoever to say "the 'all follow the plan' mentality works." It hasn't been shown to work when initiated by a player of uncertain alignment on D1. Sure, come D3 or so, with some data, flips, actions and whatnot, the pieces may be fitted together and a plan then evolve from consensus, but this "y'all shut up and do what I say" has never worked. It'd be foolish to take you at your word, and those who cheer for it (like Toaster) are likely to be invested in the town's downfall.

Wuba, you are scum.

You just made about 6 assumptions, all of which are false. Not only am I generalizing the situation, I'm not telling anyone to do any plan as of yet. The only thing I'm telling people to do is to stop being selfishly involved. Toaster was right in stating that Town should work together. If you don't, you lose. Show me the last game town won with a single person winning it for them.

Now, as for Exodia... I doubt that there are more than those two missing cards, unfortunately. But, I might have a way to stop that...

PPE:

web:

How on Earth am I overthinking the question? It's a stupid question. I'm trying to make a question that matters. Here's a good one for you:

Indeed. It's a stupid question. You spent most of a post explaining how it was stupid. Why?

I spent a post explaining how a post was stupid. Why? Because it was stupid. I didn't realize that stupidity was acceptable. If I did something stupid, I would want someone to point it out to me. The number of posts I use to explain its stupidity is irrelevant.

Why do you care about how much I care about what ANYONE asks? If, indeed, it is bad for someone to care about who says what, then why are you concerned over what I said? Do you see the underlying hypocrisy? Or do you not? Because it seems as though public record means nothing to you. I'm free to question anyone about anything they've said, regardless of the recipient. In fact, it should be encouraged, so that people are watching people. No one is allowed to ask stupid question in my game unopposed.

I care because I want to know why you care as much as you do. What purpose does your attention serve?

What. I care what EVERYONE says. If I didn't, I wouldn't be trying. I can't understand how you feel it's acceptable to not care. I'm literally baffled. If I don't stop stupidity while I'm alive, what will you do when I'm dead? Am I supposed to let you do your own thing?

As for your answer, I highly disagree with it. You're selfishly tunnelling someone for your own gain. You've given considerable lack of listening to anyone but yourself. In short, your mindset will lose town the game. But, if you're okay with that, then I will gladly vote to lynch you. Would you like to reconsider your answer?

I am? How did you get me tunneling out of that?

Listen to your answer:

Toaster: Fuck no it wouldn't make me reconsider my position. If I think he's a scummy son of a bitch, the fact that a third party is being dragged into the noose instead of him will not magically make me think that he's less of a scummy son of a bitch.

You are tunneling your target. This means that you are solely focusing on one target, regardless of what others say.

What you want to do is to get me to believe you. This game is an exercise in trust, and figuring out when, where, and how people lie. It's why town never lies: If you tell one lie, what stops people from thinking you're telling another?

This is a pile of shit. Mafia is not an exercise in trust, it is in fact the exact opposite. Nobody can be trusted, least of all people like you who seem to want the town's trust more than you want to find scum. And what's this "town never lies" bullshit? I will point you to Roguelike Mafia 4, wherein Hapah fakeclaimed an Amulet of Preservation that was in fact a Ring of Warning, as well as the goddamn Brooch of the Phoenix which nobody knew about until postgame. Town lying is entirely possible.

You're entirely confused. This game is ALL about trust. Every time you vote, you're trusting someone's argument. You're trusting that everyone is trusting your argument. You are being trusted to help pull your weight. This is not an exercise in lying. You do not win by gaining another person's distrust. You win by getting someone to trust you, and you are trusting them, regardless of what alignment you are.

I never said I deserve the town's trust. I haven't done anything. Do I want the town's trust? Yes. I do. I want everyone's trust. If people trust me, then I am doing well. Not trusting anyone has never resulted in a win.

And I suppose that the town does lie. What I meant was that they do not lie for their own benefit. Any lies that are told are for the Town's benefit.

[Zrk2]

No ideas, Wuba?

[Leafsnail]

6 votes required to lynch.  5 votes required to no lynch.  Deadline is 1:30am GMT time, on Friday the 14th of September (just over 24 hours away).

Votecount (any apparent mistakes are mistakes, please correct me if you see any):
Think0028 (1): Hapah
webadict (2): Urist Imiknorris, Bookthras
Deathsword (2): Zrk2, TolyK
Zrk2 (1): Toaster
Urist Imiknorris (1): Think0028
TolyK (1): Tiruin
Not voting (2): Deathsword, webadict

4 votes required to extend, 3 extensions remaining.

All players have posted since the last mod update.

[webadict]

Can you put who ISN'T voting on the vote counts?

[Leafsnail]

Sure.

[Bookthras]

Wuba:

Your argument is what exactly? That I'm too Town? Why would I do this as scum? I mean, I haven't even voted yet.

That's one of my arguments, yes: excessive town flag waving. You would do this as scum precisely to appear town, and overdoing it. Not voting is also scummy, since you bring it up.

I DID say that when you follow a leader or work together, you are more likely to win. This isn't an opinion. It's pretty easy to prove.

Prove it then. Go ahead. Show me a game where on D1 a "town coordinated" action or following a leader of unknown alignment led to winning the game.

The only thing I'm telling people to do is to not screw up. I'm not telling them how to vote, how to action, or how to do anything that compromises the town.

Oh, yes you did. you did say "'Do what I tell you' works; 'All follow the plan' works; 'Multiple separate plans' FAILS." What "plan" was that? what's wrong with "multiple plans"? who's this "I" that tells us what to do?

Toaster was right in stating that Town should work together. If you don't, you lose. Show me the last game town won with a single person winning it for them.

I can easily show you a game where people "did what you told them", and "all followed the plan", and town lost because of it: BSER.

Your second sentence is a strawman, and you are scummy for putting words in people's mouths: everyone doing their own game as best as they can is not "a single person winning it for them" (though that has also happened: Toaster won single-handedly Cybrid3 for town, and Zombie likewise RL5).

You're entirely confused. This game is ALL about trust. Every time you vote, you're trusting someone's argument.

I'll let Imiknorris address in detail, but this whole tirade about trust is bullshit. I vote you because I don't trust you, not because I trust someone else, nor is trust in others required to find their arguments compelling. This is all bullshit.


Zrk2:

Also, Web knows what he's talking about.  Town coordination usually works, and it's because the scum aren't given room for error.  If they follow along, they're not forwarding their own plans.

Okay, I suppose that makes sense. Now how do you propose we work together?

Zrk2, dude, did you not read what I said? No, it does not make sense. "Town coordination usually works" is both bullshit and implies acceptance that wuba is town.

Here's how I propose we work together: we all question people and try to identify who is scummy. Then we vote them, and present cases about why. The scummiest will be the most voted and will be lynched. During the night, play your best game with a mind to aid whoever you think is town or screw over the scum. D2, depending on results, perhaps share findings and with data reevaluate the notion of whether a plan is workable.


Toaster:

Town coordination usually works.

To be specific, I call scummy bullshit on your statement above. Please prove how and when has D1 Town coordination ever worked, or you're lying scum.

[Tiruin]

Will post later in...~8 or so hours. Depression, self-esteem and busy-ness isn't doing any good for me currently. Sorry.

[Teneb]

UI: The card that was stolen from me was "Hive Mind". However, I did not get a description of what it would have done. I guess the same applies to TolyK.


This probably means two cases:

1) Someone picked all 5 Exodia cards as the one to send to Leafsnail, and they were then swapped for cards with other players. This player has to recover them to win.

2) No player actually picked to cards and they were added as a win-condition for a role.

I guess this player would be third-party. Also I guess if anyone gets all 5, they win. How to get them, however, I have no idea. It also means that there is almost certainly 3 other players with these cards.

Zrk2: Why are you so ready to trust someone to come with a plan for you to follow? How do you know they're not scum?