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[Toaster]

Book:

Also, Web knows what he's talking about.  Town coordination usually works, and it's because the scum aren't given room for error.  If they follow along, they're not forwarding their own plans.

Not quite: web's advice is worth taking into consideration if he's town, but dangerous otherwise. If we allow Town to be coordinated by scum, it's scum's plan that are forwarded, not town's. You clearly know this, and there is an extremely obvious example: Think's BSER, where both you and he were scum, and led town to follow the scum's plan. Your glossing over this and lending credence to his trap make me think you are likely scum, Toaster.
[/quote]

This is bullshit, of course. His advice was to work together as town- not a proposal of a specific plan.  This statement is generic enough that the alignment of the one who said it is completely irrelevant.  Since he hasn't actually put up a plan yet, you can't make judgments like that.

Toaster:

Town coordination usually works.

To be specific, I call scummy bullshit on your statement above. Please prove how and when has D1 Town coordination ever worked, or you're lying scum.

Piss off.  I never said anything about D1 plans working.  Please, oh master of proving stuff, show me where I said anything of the sort about D1 plans.  But hey, thanks for showing up as Scum #2.


UI:

Toaster: Yes, I would, but I wouldn't be likely to act on them unless they were stronger than my own case.

-snip-

TolyK, Deathsword: What cards did you have stolen?

Noted.

Why are you asking this?

[Bookthras]

I never said anything about D1 plans working.  Please, oh master of proving stuff, show me where I said anything of the sort about D1 plans.

Certainly. See bolded below what you actually said, in context:

Re: Wuba, your idea of all working together falls apart because it will let the scum worm into the town strategy and ruin it. We are stuck working as individuals until such time as we know what is what. Or do you have a plan to circumvent this?

Web knows what he's talking about.  Town coordination usually works, and it's because the scum aren't given room for error.  If they follow along, they're not forwarding their own plans.

In context, you are explicitly answering Zrk2's question about plans with your endorsement of Wuba, and an assertion that coordination will prevent scum from forwarding their own plans.

You say now: "I never said anything about D1 plans working." But how is this not about D1 plans? What exactly did you mean by "Town coordination" then, that if the scum follow they'd fail to forward their own plans? What exactly is it then that "usually works"?

You can't disown this that easily. You're just trying to backpedal and distance yourself from a scummy unsupportable statement.

[Urist Imiknorris]

web:

This isn't an opinion. It's pretty easy to prove.

Then please do.

Now, as for Exodia... I doubt that there are more than those two missing cards, unfortunately. But, I might have a way to stop that...

a) Why do you doubt that?
b) If you doubt there's more, what's to stop?

What. I care what EVERYONE says. If I didn't, I wouldn't be trying. I can't understand how you feel it's acceptable to not care. I'm literally baffled. If I don't stop stupidity while I'm alive, what will you do when I'm dead? Am I supposed to let you do your own thing?

I know you care. You obviously care a hell of a lot, judging by your reaction, which was quite disproportionate to the stupidity of the question. My question is why do you care that much?

Additionally, why do you assume you'll die?

Listen to your answer:

Toaster: Fuck no it wouldn't make me reconsider my position. If I think he's a scummy son of a bitch, the fact that a third party is being dragged into the noose instead of him will not magically make me think that he's less of a scummy son of a bitch.

You are tunneling your target. This means that you are solely focusing on one target, regardless of what others say.

I see. You assume that I wouldn't bother examining anyone else, and you also seem to assume that by "position" I mean "vote." You then attack these false assumptions. There is absolutely nothing in Toaster's question that would affect my read of Hapah in the situation he posited. Because that's what's important - one's reads on people. If I think Hapah's scum, a third party's impending lynch won't make me think he's less scum. I might vote the third party if I see sufficiently damning evidence, but the fact remains that I would still consider Hapah scum after all is said and done with the third party.

You're entirely confused. This game is ALL about trust. Every time you vote, you're trusting someone's argument. You're trusting that everyone is trusting your argument. You are being trusted to help pull your weight. This is not an exercise in lying. You do not win by gaining another person's distrust. You win by getting someone to trust you, and you are trusting them, regardless of what alignment you are.

I never said I deserve the town's trust. I haven't done anything. Do I want the town's trust? Yes. I do. I want everyone's trust. If people trust me, then I am doing well. Not trusting anyone has never resulted in a win.

No. There is a known faction that wants the town dead, and anyone could be part of it. Why would one trust anybody save for oneself and those dead who flipped town? Every time I vote someone, I'm trusting my own argument (unless I were to shamelessly rip off somebody else's case - are you going to argue that that's good town play?). I'm trusting that my argument is coherent and rational enough for me to explain it when others question it (which they should, as they should trust me as little as I trust them). I am trusting myself to be able to find scum and persuade others that my case has merit, if only by shaking the suspect hard enough for others to start picking up tells. This is an exercise in distrust. It is an exercise in suspicion, inquiry, and reason. Town do not win by gaining another's trust. Town don't have the luxury of trusting others, as others inherently cannot be trusted. Town win by goddamn finding scum.

Toaster:

Why are you asking this?

Because I believe it's possible that a hostile player has possession of these cards, and if their identities are known, then a rough picture can be formed about what they are able to do. Additionally, there may be cards that can destroy or otherwise nullify other cards, in which case their holders may wish to use them on the "stolen" cards.

And if the Hive Mind card in question is based on this, it may be prudent to weaken or nullify it if possible.



Sleep now.

[TolyK]

TolyK, Deathsword: What cards did you have stolen?

My stolen card was also given only by name, but without abilities. School now.

[Hapah]

Hapah

Hapah, what is you favourite role as town? As scum?

Doc as Town, because vigi stresses me the hell out, apparently. Maybe Bus Driver, haven't played one of those yet. No real preference as scum.

What's wrong with being a vigilante when compared to a doctor? And a Bus Driver as town, why?

Nothing wrong with it; it's just stressful.

Also,

Hapah: The situation is as follows , there are two people that are high on the hammer, and your vote is the one that seals their fate. The first suspect acted scummy all day yet claimed to have a protect-type card and an inspecting card after pressing. The second is being vague but of less scumminess than the first. How will you treat the situation as town? As scum?

First one in both instances, after rocking the boat a little more to see if anything interesting falls out. Claiming a Doc or Cop card doesn't make you any less scummy. As Town, I'd say it's still the better lynch. As scum, I'd do it mostly because I'd do it as town. Plus you can squeeze the second guy the next day and seem perfectly justified in your hammervote.

You'd not press the person ahead of time instead of just laying down the hammer?

Bolded above.

Book, UI: I can't follow why you two are up in arms about what Web (and Toaster) said. It seems reasonable enough to me. Can you try to spell it out for me?

[Toaster]

Book:

I never said anything about D1 plans working.  Please, oh master of proving stuff, show me where I said anything of the sort about D1 plans.

Certainly. See bolded below what you actually said, in context:

Re: Wuba, your idea of all working together falls apart because it will let the scum worm into the town strategy and ruin it. We are stuck working as individuals until such time as we know what is what. Or do you have a plan to circumvent this?

Web knows what he's talking about.  Town coordination usually works, and it's because the scum aren't given room for error.  If they follow along, they're not forwarding their own plans.

In context, you are explicitly answering Zrk2's question about plans with your endorsement of Wuba, and an assertion that coordination will prevent scum from forwarding their own plans.

You say now: "I never said anything about D1 plans working." But how is this not about D1 plans? What exactly did you mean by "Town coordination" then, that if the scum follow they'd fail to forward their own plans? What exactly is it then that "usually works"?

You can't disown this that easily. You're just trying to backpedal and distance yourself from a scummy unsupportable statement.

This is a strawman of epic proportions.  You're verging on passing misrepresentation into full-on fictionalizing.  Intentionally obtuse Book is Scum Book.  I said nothing about D1, and you trying to prove I did by citing Zrk2 is laughable.  Additionally, I have said nothing about backpedaling or distancing- I still stand by what I said.

Toaster:

Why are you asking this?

Because I believe it's possible that a hostile player has possession of these cards, and if their identities are known, then a rough picture can be formed about what they are able to do. Additionally, there may be cards that can destroy or otherwise nullify other cards, in which case their holders may wish to use them on the "stolen" cards.

And if the Hive Mind card in question is based on this, it may be prudent to weaken or nullify it if possible.

Mmh... okay.  I suppose it's reasonable, but it still struck me as odd.

[Bookthras]

I still stand by what I said.

Prove it: answer the fucking question: What exactly did you mean by "Town coordination" then, that if the scum follow they'd fail to forward their own plans? What exactly is it then that "usually works"?

[Bookthras]

Hapah:

Book, UI: I can't follow why you two are up in arms about what Web (and Toaster) said. It seems reasonable enough to me. Can you try to spell it out for me?

In brief, wuba is scum because of excessive town flag waving [1], going as far as that "0.00001% chance" thing about the truth teller as red herring to give himself appearance of credibility, and most importantly for trying to get the town to rally around him and "do as I tell you". He has tried this in other games as scum with disastrous results for town. He has also committed the normal scum moves of lies, half truths, and putting words in people's mouths, as well as trying to back off a scummy position when challenged on it.[2]

Toaster is mostly guilty of trying to get town to go along with it without even questioning wuba's intentions or alignment; his unquestioning agreement seemed suspicious to me, but then came the worse one: instead of trying to justify or rectify his "wuba knows, town coordination works" statement, he first tried to disown it, then make us believe he never said it, then failing to answer questions about it. That's horribly scummy.

[This goes for everybody]: If your "seems reasonable enough to me" refers to making plans and whatnot, then I ask you to disabuse yourself of that notion: coordination on D1 has been tried and is a horrible idea. The town spend all their days and nights making increasingly unlikely plans that never ever work instead of trying to find scum. The epileptic trees that result from "Town coordination" utterly obliterate scumhunting, and never ever work because everybody fucking lies and the days go by and no one even thinks about finding any scum, lynching instead only those who refuse to be bullied into following the "master plan" or caught by the scum's traps through fakeclaiming.

Wuba and Toaster were scum in BSER, and forced onto the town a "let's all mass claim D1!" master plan. It was a total disaster, the rivers ran red with townie blood. Wuba's "do as I tell you" and Toaster's "Town coordination, wuba knows what he's talking about", coupled with wuba's "I'll tell you my cards if you'll use them to help town" and similar statements seemed to me like they were about to suggest we all lay our cards on the table. Because, you know, coordination. Horrible idea, and scummy of them to move close to it (more so because they have done it before).

[Think0028]

UI: Fair enough. Unvote. Do you think protection would be sufficient, or a more stealthy approach would be preferable?

Toaster, Book: Fair enough on both counts.

TolyK: As a survivor I'd focus on getting attention off me, with a combination of persuasion and trying to kill non obvious scum.

Webadict: "Why would I do this as scum? ... There's no point to make myself a focal point without voting like that." That's beside the point of the argument: saying that there's no reason to do that as scum deflects the attention from you to the accusation, not to mention that you don't actually address the point of what Book's saying. Regarding Exodia, you "may have a way to stop that?" Care to expand upon your "ooo look at me I'm helpful" little claim, or are you just fishing for attention?

[Urist Imiknorris]

PFP

TolyK, Deathsword: What cards did you have stolen?

My stolen card was also given only by name, but without abilities. School now.

I can't help but notice that you didn't answer the question.

[Zrk2]

Zrk2:

Also, Web knows what he's talking about.  Town coordination usually works, and it's because the scum aren't given room for error.  If they follow along, they're not forwarding their own plans.

Okay, I suppose that makes sense. Now how do you propose we work together?

Zrk2, dude, did you not read what I said? No, it does not make sense. "Town coordination usually works" is both bullshit and implies acceptance that wuba is town.

Here's how I propose we work together: we all question people and try to identify who is scummy. Then we vote them, and present cases about why. The scummiest will be the most voted and will be lynched. During the night, play your best game with a mind to aid whoever you think is town or screw over the scum. D2, depending on results, perhaps share findings and with data reevaluate the notion of whether a plan is workable.

Also a sound idea, I just wanted to see if he had any actual ideas to back up his claims. Clearly he does not, so my tolerance of it is over. Unvote, Wuba you need to answer my question; do you have a plan for the town to work together, or are you just fucking around?

[TolyK]

First of all, Unvote.

TolyK: As a survivor I'd focus on getting attention off me, with a combination of persuasion and trying to kill non obvious scum.

Why non-obvious scum? You mean not joining bandwagons? And who would you vote if things were tied and your vote was a defining one, the more obvious scum or less obvious scum?

PFP

TolyK, Deathsword: What cards did you have stolen?

My stolen card was also given only by name, but without abilities. School now.

I can't help but notice that you didn't answer the question.

Derp. I had "Keeper of the Sacred Word", so I'm a bit worried about what word they chose, if it has the same ability.

Zrk2:

Also, Web knows what he's talking about.  Town coordination usually works, and it's because the scum aren't given room for error.  If they follow along, they're not forwarding their own plans.

Okay, I suppose that makes sense. Now how do you propose we work together?

Zrk2, dude, did you not read what I said? No, it does not make sense. "Town coordination usually works" is both bullshit and implies acceptance that wuba is town.

Here's how I propose we work together: we all question people and try to identify who is scummy. Then we vote them, and present cases about why. The scummiest will be the most voted and will be lynched. During the night, play your best game with a mind to aid whoever you think is town or screw over the scum. D2, depending on results, perhaps share findings and with data reevaluate the notion of whether a plan is workable.

Also a sound idea, I just wanted to see if he had any actual ideas to back up his claims. Clearly he does not, so my tolerance of it is over. Unvote, Wuba you need to answer my question; do you have a plan for the town to work together, or are you just fucking around?

Did you really just unvote and POS Wuba because one post convinced you enough that way? It seems a bit more like you're trying to vote someone to not stand out as "not voting for wuba", to me at least. Can you try to convince me, in one post, how you go from "I suppose that makes sense" to "Wuba... are you juts fucking around?", then?

[webadict]

Okay. So, I'm glad I have no internet until this after, because then I have to slowly type out everything on a phone.

First, extension.

Second, @Book:
You have placed words in both Toaster's and my mouth. Not only are you blaming me for forcing everyone to do some plan that doesn't exist, you're stating that Toaster is advocating as such. There is a radical difference between what I said (working together) and what you stated I said (day 1 plan). You're purposefully misleading as well. Where did I state following plans of unknown alignment players on Day 1? Because you seem to think I did. I didn't. I said following a leader works. It does. Check any game where you have a town base. Paranormal 2 should do just fine. Also Dethy Deluxe. Both times where I was leader. Paranormal 6 or so also had a chaoticjosh leader. Worked well. Even within the mafia, there tends to be a leader. It works.

And working together works as well. If it didn't, we wouldn't be typing anything. There'd be no reason to. You are by yourself. There is no town to help vote with you, because no one is listening to anyone else. The whole basis of the Day game is working together. So, when the town doesn't work together, they do lose. When the mafia doesn't work together, they lose. You get nowhere in this game by not working together. So, when someone selfishly refuses to read arguments or make cases, they are not working with the town. It's happened before. Heck, it's what I'm used to, mostly because the town tends to stop trying without vocal people.

So, riddle me this: when did this game become a solo adventure?

@urist: if you don't trust me, then I get voted. An untrustworthy person dies. Trustworthy people live. This game is all about trust. It is a game of trust. He who gains the most trust can win.

@think: it's the truth. Making myself that vocal without looking as town as I could would detract from my play, not enhance it. WIFOM it be, but the truth it also is. There's literally nothing else I can say about that.

@whoever thought there was a plan: there is no plan. Book made that up and threw fancy wprds in there to make it sound like I advocated some Day 1 plan. I did not. I never did. I stated that plans do work. So does teamwork. But I have no plan to make a Day 1 plan.

@whoever says I'm not.answering.questions: i have literally 3 times the questions anyone ever has. I don't answer them all. I don't see them all. Please quote them if you feel it's important to answer, or if it's not important, don't. If your question is buried inside a paragraph of questions, DON'T DO THAT. I can literally not.read that. The sentences form together. Break them apart if you.want all of them answered.

Sorry about the errors. I'm pfp.

[Tiruin]

Ok, now back.

PPE: TolyK, webadict

Unvote now that I see the thing about that leg.

But first, clarify:

Card Shark == Stealer of Cards

I'm unsure if this has been asked before.
Leafsnail; Mod: Does the Mafia have a NK? Will there be Full Role//Cardflips?

TolyK, Deathsword: Since you've claimed those legs, can you claim if they have any other things written on it? Like "Has the capability of movement" being legs, or expound more on that knowledge that TolyK said here. I don't think that leg has any power on it's own as a Yugi-Oh card so...yeah. Knowledge?

Did you two even ask the Mod more about those legs? It says in the OP that you can. And while it says early massclaiming is inadvisable, those cards aren't yours to begin with (seemingly having switched away) so excuse me for asking but can you both claim what exactly those cards do?

And to stop Zrk2's card ability, don't claim the full name.

Also, I really do suspect we've a card thief//swapper around after reading my cards once more. Words like 'While holding' are evident in their description.


A'right, it seems that we've headed into speculation and deliberation territory. First of all: Why are people talking about D1 plans? Judging from the way this is played, how is that even possible? We've got cards instead of roles, we've got cards instead of abilities. In order to do plans, this probably involves abilities. To say abilities, we must claim the basic uses of our cards.

And an early massclaim is inadvisable.

Next, are we all firm on the belief that the legs == SK? Because that seems like a double win condition for such...probably pointing out for a survivor or third-party in general.

Zrk2

No legs, no arms, no body parts at all.

Pertaining to cards, yes? You have no cards resembling body appendages?

Anyway, you...just said that Book's definition of a good plan (which reads...SCUMHUNTING) is a sound idea.

Um.

Are you following into planning blindly or do you have any idea what you plan to do? Why did you trust webadict that fast based on that post without any sense of apprehension or whatnot? You also seem to have contradicted yourself in that post over there on your stance?

Why are you asking superficial questions?

[...]I just wanted to see if he had any actual ideas to back up his claims. Clearly he does not, so my tolerance of it is over.[...]

So can you please tell us on what disproved your idea of that? Preferably, with quotes.

Lastly, FoS on Web because...what? You say he missed your question, but do not quote it? And that shift in attitude, why?

Webadict
Your post here seems like going on the defensive and skipping to conclusions at the very first sign of attack (ie Bookthras). By your wording in the first paragraph, I wonder what a vote has to do with the (idea of a) fallacy of being Too Towny.

@4th paragraph: Yes, town should work together, but not in the sense that there is a leader who has both a chance to shove them astray. I'm thinking Toaster meant the teamwork as in finding scum, trying to find out each other, scumhunting...and generally not counting your chickens before they hatched. Teamwork in the sense that people are thinking rationally and logically given evidence and circumstances that present themselves.

Query on your statement in trust: Trust depends on varying factors, does it not? Basically stating something without any backing does not gain anything, but based on multiple ideas and details, trust can exist in the sense that there is truth in it's support. What I see there is, you putting the intangible idea of trust in everything -- with or without the fact that there must be a foundation for a case or not.

Of course, trust isn't given freely, as respect isn't given freely to those in higher authority. You have to earn both through action. What struck me as suspicious as why you did state in the second-to-the-last paragraph is why you talk about something as trivial as that while saying that you haven't done anything as if the whole statement is entirely related with what UI said.

Not trusting anyone has never resulted in a win.

Townies don't know anyone elses role. Logic works in a way to base a person's role with trust. I can not trust you, as well as anyone else, but I trust their reasoning, per se.

Why are you explaining things in detail without seeing the implications of them?


Bookthras

Wuba:

-snip-

That's one of my arguments, yes: excessive town flag waving. You would do this as scum precisely to appear town, and overdoing it. Not voting is also scummy, since you bring it up.

When a person states the word 'Town' in context, it means scum in a sense? I can see him explaining in detail about what he thinks about UI's statement.

Also, Epileptic trees? Are these meta references to other Mafias? And because Wub and Toaster were scum in BSER, does that affect your perception of their actions in this game?

Next, last paragraph before address to Zrk2: You're voting web on the reason that you don't trust him, exactly? Nothing else?

And, here, why did you jump on web when he stated a possibility about plans (based on that lost card of TolyK) and then you...charge him.

What?

PPE Webadict

...Ok, unofficial votecount, basis here:

Think0028 (1): Hapah
webadict (3): Urist Imiknorris, Bookthras, Think0028
Deathsword (0):
Zrk2 (1): Toaster
Urist Imiknorris (0):
TolyK (0):
Bookthras (1): Tiruin
Not voting (2): Deathsword, webadict, Zrk2, TolyK

6 votes required to lynch.  5 votes required to no lynch.  Deadline is 1:30am GMT time, on Friday the 14th of September (just over 24 hours away - 15 hours at this time).


. . .

You know, I thought we'd be hammering and not lynching. Are we still hammering based on the words of the last votecount?

6 votes required to lynch.  5 votes required to no lynch.  Deadline is 1:30am GMT time, on Friday the 14th of September (just over 24 hours away).

Votecount (any apparent mistakes are mistakes, please correct me if you see any):
Think0028 (1): Hapah
webadict (2): Urist Imiknorris, Bookthras
Deathsword (2): Zrk2, TolyK
Zrk2 (1): Toaster
Urist Imiknorris (1): Think0028
TolyK (1): Tiruin
Not voting (2): Deathsword, webadict

4 votes required to extend, 3 extensions remaining.

All players have posted since the last mod update.

Mod: Either I'm being dull, or Dariush isn't in the game because he didn't send in cards. The latter is true, right?

[Tiruin]

EBWOP:

What.

What?

PFP

TolyK, Deathsword: What cards did you have stolen?

My stolen card was also given only by name, but without abilities. School now.

I can't help but notice that you didn't answer the question.

Derp. I had "Keeper of the Sacred Word", so I'm a bit worried about what word they chose, if it has the same ability.

What?!

Your card was swapped for that leg which grants knowledge if the seal is bluh bluh...You know that.

But you say what happens as if you know more than the name unlike what you said here, in the past tense, when it's seemingly a creature type.

Also...if it's a creature card then that's a good way to test on Zrk2's ability .