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[Halfling]

I'm pretty sure those are living since you can start an adherent adventurer there.


My first time visiting an adherent monastery. I just stumbled into one, it was right next to other civs' fortresses. It was very bizarre. Holy crap there's many of these guys:






The large courtyard of the monastery was full of them. Everywhere I turned, there were more and more adherent missionaries meditating in silence. (every part of the fortress courtyard was equally full of missionaries)

I then entered the monastery proper, a lonely tower rising inside its walls. Therein was a crowd of adherents of various intellectual professions, as well as dozens of beekeepers. I counted 11 beekeepers on the first floor alone. So many adherent beekeepers, clerks and architects were there that they had to literally stand on top of each other, some lying down to make more room.

[WillowLuman]

Well, at least they're not as sparse as fortresses. Works for me. (The amount in the monasteries, that is. Not the number of monasteries)

What I meant by my previous comment was that even if halfling civs or adherent civs were wiped out, you'd see their sites on the map.

[Zanzetkuken The Great]

Just took a look at all our weapons-grade materials.  The cheapest I could find is lunanium, with a material value of 14...in vanilla, Iron and Silver have values of 10...
...
...
Did no one pay attention to this?  I'm going to say 'screw it' to running the lizardfolk turn, and instead get some cheap, weapons-grade materials made for this.

[Halfling]

The fortresses are not sparse in my worlds, but okay. The beekeepers, though?

I wonder if there's any way to not make them join you. That would be good for balance. Because one of them joined me as soon as I asked and has killed three bandit groups single-handedly now.

Just took a look at all our weapons-grade materials.  The cheapest I could find is lunanium, with a material value of 14...in vanilla, Iron and Silver have values of 10...
...
...
Did no one pay attention to this?  I'm going to say 'screw it' to running the lizardfolk turn, and instead get some cheap, weapons-grade materials made for this.

No, materials being more expensive than vanilla is intentional at least for my part. Feel free to change that.

[WillowLuman]

I meant, as settlements rather than military outposts, the Adherent monasteries are meant to be more populated than the Fortresses of other races. Beekeeping seems like a good way to practice the mind (and sustain those who still have bodies). I don't know of any way to make them not join you, unfortunately, aside from making them hostile.

@ZTG Please make iron and copper. We sorely need some standard materials, to give context to the others.

[Halfling]

Okay.

So, sorry to be so hard on the adherents. After some experience adventuring with one as my companion I'm now taking a closer look... 100% chance to inflict unconsciousness and bleeding from the brain at will? That they can keep chaining so it continues forever, having a shorter wait period than effect? Instantly killing any adventurer that goes against them? That may be "resistable" in theory but works against storm dragons in arena in practice?

I just had a gifted adherent take out 4 storm dragons. Considering earlier the thought was that if something can take out a megabeast consistently it should be a megabeast... Are you sure that's balanced? I mean I don't see any way you can criticize lizardman contact poison and have this.

[Zanzetkuken The Great]

Just took a look at all our weapons-grade materials.  The cheapest I could find is lunanium, with a material value of 14...in vanilla, Iron and Silver have values of 10...
...
...
Did no one pay attention to this?  I'm going to say 'screw it' to running the lizardfolk turn, and instead get some cheap, weapons-grade materials made for this.

No, materials being more expensive than vanilla is intentional at least for my part. Feel free to change that.

I realize that it would be difficult to gain meteoric iron makes sense.  The other metals being rare finds or hard to make - makes sense.  No one making a single cheap, maybe piece of s*** metal - What the?!?

@ZTG Please make iron and copper. We sorely need some standard materials, to give context to the others.

I would say yes to the copper, but no to the iron.  I'll add cobalt instead, along with a few bastardizations of periodic table elements.  Since I want to be accurate, and I don't know how the metric-DF conversions work, I'm not going to add cobalt.

I mean I don't see any way you can criticize lizardman contact poison and have this.

When was this, by the way?

[Halfling]

Just took a look at all our weapons-grade materials.  The cheapest I could find is lunanium, with a material value of 14...in vanilla, Iron and Silver have values of 10...
...
...
Did no one pay attention to this?  I'm going to say 'screw it' to running the lizardfolk turn, and instead get some cheap, weapons-grade materials made for this.

No, materials being more expensive than vanilla is intentional at least for my part. Feel free to change that.

I realize that it would be difficult to gain meteoric iron makes sense.  The other metals being rare finds or hard to make - makes sense.  No one making a single cheap, maybe piece of s*** metal - What the?!?

@ZTG Please make iron and copper. We sorely need some standard materials, to give context to the others.

I would say yes to the copper, but no to the iron.  I'll add cobalt instead, along with a few bastardizations of periodic table elements.

I mean I don't see any way you can criticize lizardman contact poison and have this.

When was this, by the way?

I guess you have a point. But we could do with some familiar materials.

Lizardman blood being contact poison was removed in HugoL bugfix because it lead to no creature having a higher than 50% chance of survival from fighting a single lizardman (even ones that don't breathe end up being paralyzed forever, and this works on massive megabeasts too). This is a game where blood spatters everywhere. Thought you knew.

If you want to make it a contact poison again, it should probably have a weaker effect. People pretty much agreed it was too much.

[WillowLuman]

Okay.

So, sorry to be so hard on the adherents. After some experience adventuring with one as my companion I'm now taking a closer look... 100% chance to inflict unconsciousness and bleeding from the brain at will? That they can keep chaining so it continues forever, having a shorter wait period than effect? Instantly killing any adventurer that goes against them? That may be "resistable" in theory but works against storm dragons in arena in practice?

I just had a gifted adherent take out 4 storm dragons. Considering earlier the thought was that if something can take out a megabeast consistently it should be a megabeast... Are you sure that's balanced? I mean I don't see any way you can criticize lizardman contact poison and have this.

I really need more data on them. In my arena tests, it actually takes a very, very long time for them to actually kill anything when using only their interactions, except for the rare Gifted ones who can make undirected dust.

In my experience, I'd say they're balanced because you have to go out of your way to piss them off, they're kind of flimsy in worldgen due to creatures not using interactions in history (in my worlds most of their historical figures live only 20 years before a maneater or storm dragon gets them). In practice they are virtually indestructible, but their attacks do little damage and are mostly focused on disabling.

It's not like lizardfolk where they'd ambush you and you couldn't defend yourself without poisoning yourself. They're utterly passive, no bandits, and their ethics don't allow them to start wars, only to defend themselves. True it should be harder to recruit them, but we have yet to figure out a way.

Making their monasteries rarer ought to help with that. Instead of a hard cap on civs, how about turning their global population cap down? I don't remember what it is, but if you set it to 10,000, then there could never be more than 10 thousand of them at a time, or 10 monasteries. In practice there would probably be far less. The most I've ever seen is 4,000 with the current cap.

[Halfling]

True, it takes a long time for them to kill anything in arena mode, because they have a push attack only, but they can shut down and make bleed from the brain 3 creatures permanently, every single one, if their attacks are used optimally.

In adventure (and I assume, fortress) mode this is different. Note, as in the log I screencapped above, that they have metal spears. This makes them able to single handedly kill... anything I've pitted them against so far. Squids in the river, packs of hounds, groups of bandits, I'm sure megabeasts too. Their ethics makes this less relevant but it's still pretty broken mechanically.

How about setting the wait period to 1000 instead of 100? That way a single adherent can only cause unconsciousness in 1 creature for 30% of the time instead of 3 creatures 100% of the time. Seems slightly less insane.

Current is [MAX_POP_NUMBER:11000].

[Halfling]

Also I'm not sure if even that's enough because they should send caravans, right? 4 times per year, they have 4 active seasons. And those caravans will be able to take out ANYTHING, any megabeasts and sieges and so on.

[WillowLuman]

How the hell do they have metal spears? Are you sure that's not an adventurer? They have neither metal nor any weapons permitted in their entity file. I think something happened to the raws you're using, they're producing much different results than mine.

[Zanzetkuken The Great]

I guess you have a point. But we could do with some familiar materials.

Lizardman blood being contact poison was removed in HugoL bugfix because it lead to no creature having a higher than 50% chance of survival from fighting a single lizardman (even ones that don't breathe end up being paralyzed forever, and this works on massive megabeasts too). This is a game where blood spatters everywhere. Thought you knew.

If you want to make it a contact poison again, it should probably have a weaker effect. People pretty much agreed it was too much.

...You couldn't have at least f****** pm'ed me before you did so to make sure I knew!?!?  I would have been f****** open to allowing people to change it, and would have made the changes myself, if someone f****** told me!  [/rant]

You know why I put the syndrome that is supposed to take several months before it takes effect in there?  To provide a challenge of varying the fortress military.  Granted, I could have, and probably should have, raised the Pop_triggers by a bit to offset it, but still that was the point.  Well, one of the points.  As you recall, I was planning on trying to add multiple things to the swamps, and most of it would have had poisonous blood, so naturally, the lizardfolk would have had their own poisonous blood from being in those areas.

It's not like lizardfolk where they'd ambush you and you couldn't defend yourself without poisoning yourself. They're utterly passive, no bandits, and their ethics don't allow them to start wars, only to defend themselves. True it should be harder to recruit them, but we have yet to figure out a way.

If I had known, I would have changed it, but I never had the time to test it, and not a single person gave me any data on the lizardfolk besides ZMC.  That is it.  All the data I had to work with was from a short stint of someone in fortress mode, whose problems I had fixed, even after my official bug-fixing turn.  But besides that, I didn't know anything.  And don't ask why I didn't know about the later discussion, I am a senior in high school with, in my line-up of classes: Dual-Credit Calculus and Advanced Placement English.  Add in a few other things that like to do in my time, and I have nothing left.

[WillowLuman]

Well, we apologize. We were having trouble hearing from people when we did it, so we went with "ask for forgiveness rather than permission, we need to get this done quickly." Now that we do have time, and you've heard about it, we can figure something better out.

The whole blood thing worked differently in adventure mode, because something that takes months in fort mode can happen in 2 days or less in Adventure mode. A certainly fatal contact syndrome from hostiles with the potential to show up in dozens, without any provocation, seems a bit much, though. Maybe a fatal syndrome from drinking their blood, and blisters or nausea from contact?

About iron: we've already got meteoric iron, which is far too common (and deep) than any meteor has a right to be. In it's current state it's not very meteoric. I think we should have some regular iron (with a single kind of ore), and make meteoric iron use gem behavior, so it shows up uncommonly as relatively "meteor" sized clusters within most kinds of rock.

[Halfling]

I guess you have a point. But we could do with some familiar materials.

Lizardman blood being contact poison was removed in HugoL bugfix because it lead to no creature having a higher than 50% chance of survival from fighting a single lizardman (even ones that don't breathe end up being paralyzed forever, and this works on massive megabeasts too). This is a game where blood spatters everywhere. Thought you knew.

If you want to make it a contact poison again, it should probably have a weaker effect. People pretty much agreed it was too much.

...You couldn't have at least f****** pm'ed me before you did so to make sure I knew!?!?  I would have been f****** open to allowing people to change it, and would have made the changes myself, if someone f****** told me!  [/rant]

No need to get all mad. You yourself state you were busy. It's really hard to get a hold of busy people, people even leave these forums all the time, and this needs to go forward to ever make completion, whatever that is. So we change things and then when you scream, we can change them back. These things aren't permanent and they're not finalized, nor personal.

There's two ways to play the game: fortress and adventurer mode. Even if lizardfolk contact poison weren't op for fortress mode - which it was, consider how fast stains spread and how much trouble such poisons can be - it definitely is for adventurer mode. You get ambushed, and then often die inevitably some time later. So it needed to be changed urgently. PMing you would have been good though, so sorry about that.

How the hell do they have metal spears? Are you sure that's not an adventurer? They have neither metal nor any weapons permitted in their entity file. I think something happened to the raws you're using, they're producing much different results than mine.

Obviously it is an adventurer companion (stated). I would not test with anything but fresh downloaded raws. But now that you said it, sorry, he may have picked it up somewhere. He must have killed the one he picked it up from, though, since I did not interfere. I'll try to find another monastery and verify.

But consider the following:
1) These creatures WILL come visit your fortress 4 times per year.
2) They are capable of killing anything in the game that has a brain; even one of them can defeat a horde of armed opponents or a megabeast. The above makes it a valid strategy to let them kill any siege.
3) They may be limited to push attacks by default but they are definitely capable of acquiring equipment, being able to grasp.
4) They are capable of going mad if something bad happens.