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[Cheeetar]

I think claiming miller prior to being investigated is more suspicious than claiming miller post being investigated.

Why?

The chances of being investigated as a miller in a 17 person game are fairly slim- I feel the risk of a mislynch due to it is quite small, and even then you may claim after being investigated in the night (possibly prior to the investigator outing themselves as such, and thus negating the need for the investigator to make themselves a scum target.) Specifically dissuading the investigator from trying to investigate you is suspicious.

Claiming pre-investigation miller seems like a self preservation technique, even if you're town- it's to avoid being mislynched (or appropriately lynched) after investigation, yes?

[flabort]

Hmm? Your plan when miller is to know what night you get investigated and then claim right before the investigator does?
Sounds impossible.

Yeah, claiming miller when it's true is to avoid being mislynched, but not just after investigation: at all.

The way you're interpreting miller, it sounds like you'd have to be psychic to play it right.

[Cheeetar]

Err, no. I'm saying that it may be possible for this to occur- the miller would get the message of the results of the night from Webadict, interpret from that that they've been investigated, and then hopefully post before the investigator does that they were investigated and are a miller. It wouldn't rely on them being psychic, just posting before the investigator does after the night is resolved.

[flabort]

interpret from that that they've been investigated,

And are you assuming that millers have a power that tells them that they got investigated? It wouldn't show up in their flavor unless they had such a power.
And that's the problem with your assumption.

If the flavor does tell everyone and anyone that they got investigated, then the scum would know if they got investigated too and claim miller the way you're saying a miller should.

[Nerjin]

Do that again, and I will vote you for wasting everyone's time. That was NOT neccesary and you shouldn't have done it. You are obviously intelligent enough to trim the post into something resembling coherent, so I expect you to do so in the future. It wasn't cute. It wasn't funny. It was a waste of time and space. If you're going to make a wall of text, do it because you have something to say. Not because... Whyever you did it.

You know the number of shits I give about people threatening me with votes?  Zero.  . . . Go ahead, use your vote for no other reason than you hate my posting style.  All it would . . . prove is] that you don't particularly care about your vote, . . .

No, it wasn't intended to be cute.  . . . [C]alm yourself down and use your vote in a manner that is in accordance with the needs of the town. . .

[/quote]

I'm not in the mood to argue. Just don't waste people's time with walls of text that don't need to be wall of text.

[Cheeetar]

interpret from that that they've been investigated,

And are you assuming that millers have a power that tells them that they got investigated? It wouldn't show up in their flavor unless they had such a power.

Drat. I was assuming that you'd get some sort of account of the night previous- "you went and did thing to X, and also while you were doing that some guy rifled through your stuff."

If the flavor does tell everyone and anyone that they got investigated, then the scum would know if they got investigated too and claim miller the way you're saying a miller should.

The scum would probably wait until the investigator claimed as well before claiming miller if they knew they'd been investigated- if only so they could target him during the night phase. If anybody claimed before the investigator claimed ("I have been investigated during the night, I am a miller, sorry investigator!") it's possible to proceed to discussing that ("Are they really a miller or just getting out of an investigation?") normally without the investigator having to claim. I understand this might not always happen! I brought it up purely as a possibility.

[Imp]

Shakerag:

Imp:  Do you think your pre-game banter will make you more of a target now?

It might, which could be useful.  Do you view my pre-game banter as useful or meaningful to you?

Scripten:

Imp, Cheetar, & Shakerag: I haven't played or seen a game of mafia in which you've taken part, but you seem to be a regular around these parts. What's your strong suite; day or night game?

I actually don't know.  I've played.... a total of 4 games, mid-game subbed into a fifth, and started a 6th that got cancelled after N1.  So I haven't really played enough to tell, and I've just come back from about a 6 month break.  Not sure I have a suite, strong or weak, but whatever I have I'll bring.  That said, I tend to talk a lot.  A LOT.  But I have far less time than I did, and that should work to keep me from flooding excessively.

Persus:

Imp: You feel ready for Mafia after a long break? Do you think you'll be making any posts as long as the Behemoth this game?

Ready for -this- mafia, yes.  I like supernatural but BYOR12 was the mafia game where I learned mafia could be (should be?) fun.  I'm ready for fun.  Behemoth posts... sure hope not, don't think I have that much time.

Flabort:

Imp Hello. I hear you're a returning player? What is your impression about each player you haven't played with before?

Utterly haven't had much time to form them yet.  Ideally, by my ideals, I'll be tracking each one of you (new and old; in 6 months even players I 'knew' ((hah, for a handful of games' interactions)) may well have changed greatly) and using intuition and interaction patterns, interpret what I see and feel into something that may mean something about you all as players and alignments.  Until I have firmer impressions, you're all 'I don't know' to me, even if I thought I knew you once.

IronyOwl:

Imp, do you trust Tiruin's miller claim?

Haven't decided yet, not enough information.  Tiruin has both lied and told the truth very smoothly in the past.  I am not extremely and deeply concerned about it; at worst Tiruin is identified, as Cheeetar stated directly, as either a miller or as a Scum.  Unless she has a power that activates if someone tries to investigate her alignment, and makes something she doesn't want to happen change if she is investigated.  Like, dunno, if she picked 'Sub-atomic Particle' or something like that, which you can determine the position of, -or- the speed of, whichever you determine sends the other upon a wild change.  I'm looking at everyone and thinking about everyone as best I can.

Cheeetar:

In fact, in case it wasn't obvious enough already that I am asking everybody:
Everybody, do you think a claimed miller lynch would be the best choice on Day 1, in the absence of any strong scumtells, or would a more random vote work better?

Ehh, I usually won't random vote.  In general, I vote for reasons and my vote usually means I want them hung; rarely it means I want their attention and think I haven't been getting it previously; maybe someday I'll find another reason to vote for people. (Nerjin for re-election, woo!)

Is a miller vote the best possible use of a vote D1, in this game specifically?  If I decide it is, everyone will know, because that's how I'll be voting.  At this time, I don't have enough information to feel ready to vote.
4maskwolf:  You profoundly 'gave up' and I dare say 'self destructed' in our first game together, where we both subbed into a newbie game under some difficult circumstances at about the same time.  Do you still do things like that when you play Mafia?

notquitethere:  Have you already started your spreadsheet for this game?  If yes, what do you now consider the most important thing(s) to track?  If not, do you still use spreadsheets?  If not, why not?

Nerjin:  You're our president, so.... you're saying most of us have voted for you at some point.  Are you up for re-election soon, and are you asking for our votes?

Scripten:  I'm tempted to step on you, just in case.  Do you intend to use much coded/hidden message stuff in your posts?  What value do you see in placing hidden messages in your words?

Also, all this role playing is quite fun.[/abbr]

Since you say you like the RP going on, do you intend instead to join it more directly, or is it something you'd rather observe?

Shakerag: 

Note that I didn't say 'read it', because I can't.

If you want to read it, copy/paste it into notepad or something, or just quote the post.  Since you probably knew of at least both of those options, why'd you claim you couldn't read Tiruin's tinywrite?

Cheeetar:  How much time to play this game do you have?  Would you say your posts need to be rushed, or are you able to relax and enjoy this game?   Also, I'm pretty new to Mafia and I've never played in a game with a Miller before.  But millers -are- Town, are they not?  And in a BYOR, a miller may have useful powers that are helpful to Town.  Am I wrong about this possibility?  Can you explain why miller dead, even if miller-is-milller-not-Scum is the best possible lynch for Town for this day?

Flabort:  You're salting your post pretty heavily with clues about a possible role you may have.  Why?


PFP, which for me means posting from profession:  I'm at work.  Some of you got ignored, for now.  I'm well aware of it.

[flabort]

Flabort:  You're salting your post pretty heavily with clues about a possible role you may have.  Why?

Why not-ato? It's not like I have anything BAD this time around that might get me lynched. No kill, no miller, no vote steal... nothing tater-ly controversial.

[Imp]

Flabort:  You're salting your post pretty heavily with clues about a possible role you may have.  Why?

Why not-ato? It's not like I have anything BAD this time around that might get me lynched. No kill, no miller, no vote steal... nothing tater-ly controversial.

Soo, you say you're doing this just for fun?  Not because it has any strategic purpose of value for you at all?

[4maskwolf]

4maskwolf:  You profoundly 'gave up' and I dare say 'self destructed' in our first game together, where we both subbed into a newbie game under some difficult circumstances at about the same time.  Do you still do things like that when you play Mafia?

eheh.
Eheheheheheheh.
Good times, good times.
Well, let's take a poll.
Everyone: Have I ever "given up" in a mafia game you have seen me play, barring the over dramatized giving up post I made in Jack's BYOR when I was fakeclaiming martyr and my first two games (my first BM and Wuba's last game)?

[Jack A T]

Alright.  I'm here, but exhausted.  I've skimmed through the thread, and I intend to get a real post in either later tonight or tomorrow.

However, I feel that I need to say something quickly, before this miller debate (the primary role of millers, as far as I can tell, is to generate debates about millers) gets too cringeworthy.

Cheeetar: Even with some sort of way for millers to know when they've been acted on, why should they create strategies that depend on them being online earlier in a new day than theoretical investigators?  What makes that better than just being transparent about the misinspection issue and making sure that the small chance of a wasted inspection becomes a 0% chance?

The chances of being investigated as a miller in a 17 person game are fairly slim- I feel the risk of a mislynch due to it is quite small, and even then you may claim after being investigated in the night (possibly prior to the investigator outing themselves as such, and thus negating the need for the investigator to make themselves a scum target.) Specifically dissuading the investigator from trying to investigate you is suspicious.

Please clarify: is the "risk of a mislynch" you mention the risk of being investigated and then mislynched, or the risk of being mislynched once one has been investigated?  That is, is the risk small due to the low chance of being investigated, or due to there being a low chance of being lynched once investigated?

If the former, why shouldn't a miller try to eliminate a rather small but very easily eliminated chance of being mislynched, or at the very least a rather small but very easily eliminated chance of an investigation being wasted?  Is it not more helpful to the town for a theoretical miller to both minimize the chance of a mislynch and maximize the chance of the cop investigating actual scum?
I'll deal with everything later.

[4maskwolf]

Also, Cheetar, what is this silliness about claiming after instead of before?

Tiruin, why do you not want to be rolecopped?

[flabort]

Flabort:  You're salting your post pretty heavily with clues about a possible role you may have.  Why?

Why not-ato? It's not like I have anything BAD this time around that might get me lynched. No kill, no miller, no vote steal... nothing tater-ly controversial.

Soo, you say you're doing this just for fun?  Not because it has any strategic purpose of value for you at all?

Eh, pretty much. Isn't that what the game's about? Fun? It wouldn't be a game if it weren't.
I'm trying to be very light hearted in this one after being more serious in my other plays. I'm not going to be making mistakes, either, but I'm trying to be more mirthful. Spud-full, if you will.

[IronyOwl]

Tiruin:

I see it more as a way of tracking interactions. Obviously, there's the curious folk. Then there's scum who would use the shift of attention to either coast along calmly in the lack of heat, depending on the situation, and there are those which would show their attitudes at the slightest of provocation.

All it takes is a spark--the claim was a note of my role: part of it was also my interest in how others would see it, but not just because I had it.
What it is, is curiosity about you all.

Any particular reason to believe you're telling the truth about it, then?


flabort:

flabort:

IronyOwl Hi. Let's say you needed a replacement in some other game, and the GM had to choose from the players in THIS game. Which of the players would you want the GM to pick? Which would you least trust to take over for you?

Probably Jack AT and... hm. The only thing I recall about Jiokuy is that he got lynched D1 elsewhere, and I'm not familiar with Scripten at all. You're possibly not the greatest choice what with barely existing until D2.

Well, not like I want to go; it sounds like I might not have to now, at least. We'll see; depends how tonight goes IRL.
Shakerag and Tiruin are not options? You wouldn't trust Silthuri with your spot?

To be honest I'm not familiar enough with either of them anymore. Well, I think I'm still reasonably familiar with Tiruin, but her posts tend to make my head hurt.

Silthuri I would better know as... MOWE? I know I should remember more of her than I do, so into the unknown bin she goes.


Cheeetar:

In fact, in case it wasn't obvious enough already that I am asking everybody:
Everybody, do you think a claimed miller lynch would be the best choice on Day 1, in the absence of any strong scumtells, or would a more random vote work better?

I think it's a useless water-treading crutch. Making up our minds that we're going to lynch the most obvious target unless someone else confesses reduces the effectiveness and motivation of scumhunting, which gives us an even more useless D1 than normal. I think that if we can't find a better target than a first-post-confessed Miller, we should man up, accept that we're fucked regardless, and lynch whoever said the wrong thing at the wrong time and then dug themselves a hole with it, just like normal.

The chances of being investigated as a miller in a 17 person game are fairly slim- I feel the risk of a mislynch due to it is quite small

Specifically dissuading the investigator from trying to investigate you is suspicious.

Claiming pre-investigation miller seems like a self preservation technique, even if you're town- it's to avoid being mislynched (or appropriately lynched) after investigation, yes?

These first two seem to cancel each other out, don't they? If the odds are low, why bother with it as scum either?

What about the third makes post-investigation claiming townier than pre-investigation claiming? It's still a self-preservation no matter when you apply it.


4mask:

eheh.
Eheheheheheheh.
Good times, good times.
Well, let's take a poll.
Everyone: Have I ever "given up" in a mafia game you have seen me play, barring the over dramatized giving up post I made in Jack's BYOR when I was fakeclaiming martyr and my first two games (my first BM and Wuba's last game)?

Super7. You came back eventually, but it wasn't quick or clean.

[4maskwolf]

That's different.  My death there was going to be a huge boon to the town(although my survival even more so), and I did die eventually (heh the scum thought they could frame me).

Also, yes, I am fed up with mafia.  I'm playing partially because a couple of people have told I should and partly because even though I'm done, part of me doesn't want to give it up, because it's been fun in the past.  That's not to say I won't play well: I will.  I'm just sick and tired of playing the game.  Or any game, for that matter.