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Author Topic: Brainstorm: Hard Brewing Mod  (Read 4995 times)

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Brainstorm: Hard Brewing Mod
« on: November 20, 2014, 12:21:13 pm »

So I had this idea because I was planning out a tea industry. Since the differences between varieties of tea are in how they're prepared, the preparation steps were going to have to be a lot more complex than those for brewing (pick fruit, brew); but then, why would you ever brew tea?

Which is when it hit me: alcohol preparation can be complicated too!

Here are some things I need help with:

  • Aging. Is there a way to transform a plant growth or material into another state only after it's been around for a certain period of time?
  • Effort vs Reward. Some of these brews are going to take years to create. What are some ways to reward the player for creating them, beyond just material values?
  • I'd like to simulate the domestication of tea from wild trees to domesticated bushes. Is it possible for a plant of one type to produce seeds for another type?

Suggestions for anything you'd like to see in a hard brewing mod are of course also very welcome.
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UnicodingUnicorn

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Re: Brainstorm: Hard Brewing Mod
« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2014, 12:26:21 pm »

1. Unless you want to do reaction chains, which take time, no. I think.

2. Syndromes giving stat boosts and the like.

3. I doubt so, but I'm not too sure.

And you have my interest with the tea part.
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Vattic

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Re: Brainstorm: Hard Brewing Mod
« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2014, 03:43:41 am »

You could have a reaction that takes the brewing ingredients and produces an item which melts at any temperature with a high specific heat. It should slowly melt into a glob which can be used in an automatic reaction that produces a barrel of finished booze. You'd need DO_NOT_CLEAN_GLOB to avoid the obvious. Not sure how long you could make it take.

Depending on how you are processing the plants you could have the reactions occasionally produce a domesticated seed as well as the undomesticated ones. You could even chain it so you go wild > semi-domesticated > domesticated; Each level would only produce seeds from it's own level and the level above.
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Re: Brainstorm: Hard Brewing Mod
« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2014, 11:01:44 am »

Oooooh, thanks Vattic. Those are some great ideas!
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Zorbeltuss

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Re: Brainstorm: Hard Brewing Mod
« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2014, 08:30:37 am »

1. Vattic has got a good answer on this but I do not.
2. You could give the booze a mild numbing syndrome, which might help your dwarves stay in combat rather than passing out aside from the stat boosts Snail555 suggested.
3. There was a discussion on this a while ago (probably no more than a year but I'm not certain), you can use a reaction to make seeds of another plant in a workshop, you'd probably wouldn't want to use it directly on the seeds of the first plant though because that would make it very easy to just set up a few workshop orders and do the whole chain of reactions in one go from undomesticated to slightly domesticated to domesticated (or whatever chain you choose), the problem with this path is that there will  be a lot of extra plants in the raws and it adds complexity to the player without actually giving the player any unique experience of doing it, I need to sleep now but if I remember I'll try to find and link the old thread on the subject.

Edit: I could not find the thread, also I was apparently too tired to see that Vattic answered the third question too.

/Zorbeltuss
« Last Edit: November 25, 2014, 06:08:43 am by Zorbeltuss »
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smeeprocket

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Re: Brainstorm: Hard Brewing Mod
« Reply #5 on: November 25, 2014, 10:50:40 am »

WIll this include kombucha? A tea mod would be awesome but it seems kind of... elven.

Kombucha is fermented so have a minuscule amount of alcohol in it at least.
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Re: Brainstorm: Hard Brewing Mod
« Reply #6 on: November 25, 2014, 05:20:04 pm »

Yeah, tea does feel somewhat elven; but then, all aboveground plants do, neh? Though might be neat to give the tea reactions to elves, and let dwarves trade it in.

I'd also like to include more involved steps in brewing alcohol, but I don't know much about it (yet). If anyone would like to point me to some good resources for how alcohol is made and what differentiates them from each other, please feel free to point me to them.

I should note that I'm thinking of making a tea bush that grows in temperate-to-warm, rainy mountain biomes, since tea primarily grows, you know... on temperate-to-warm, rainy mountains. The good stuff, anyway.

I'm also considering making each age of leaf a different 'growth', such that buds grow in the spring, then new leaves a few days later, then fresh full-grown leaves for wulong, and then finally full-grown leaves, which can only produce lower-grade tea. But I'm worried that that won't work so well with domestic production, because which usable growth is dropped from the farm is chosen randomly.



I guess I should share my current tea list. There's room for expansion. I should note that these are categories by preparation - there would be varieties within each category based on cultivar, leaf maturity, how many times you did repeatable steps, etc.

Fresh tea (brewing straight tea leaves, can make you sick)
Green tea (Sun-dry -> roll (0-1) -> fry -> brew)
Scented green tea (Sun-dry -> roll (0-1) -> fry -> [add flowers -> dark dry -> sift -> fry]x(1-8) -> brew)
White tea (Sun-dry -> dry (2) -> roast -> brew; unspecified drying can be sun or dark)
Yellow tea (Sun-dry -> [fry -> dark dry]x(1-4) -> roast -> brew)
Konacha (Dark dry (4) -> sift -> mill -> brew)
Wulong tea (Sun-dry -> bruise -> [dark dry and/or turn]x(1-8) -> fry -> roll (0-2) -> roast (1-2) -> brew)
Black/Red tea (Sun-dry -> bruise -> roll -> dark dry -> fry -> roll -> roast (1-2) -> brew)
Raw Puer (Sun-dry -> Steam -> Press -> wait 10 years or more -> brew)
Cooked Puer (Sun-dry -> soak -> turn (4-8) -> roast -> steam -> press -> brew)



Thank you for bringing kombucha to my attention! I'll likely put that in the plant fixes mod as a use for tea leaves.

As for kombucha's place in a hard brewing mod, I'm inclined to say that dwarves won't drink tea until it's fermented, so their own brewing process includes the fermentation of the tea. So, all of these teas would be drinkable only as Tea Type Here Kombucha. I also like the idea of importing tea as a plant extract from elves and humans, and brewing it into kombucha :).

I'm tempted to use the Chinese name, chajun, instead of kombucha, because kombucha is too close to Japanese kelp tea (konbucha). While I don't think kelp is coming anytime soon, chajun seems like it would be better for avoiding confusion.
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Meph

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Re: Brainstorm: Hard Brewing Mod
« Reply #7 on: November 26, 2014, 05:06:49 am »

Your end product will have to be a DRINK, otherwise dwarves will ignore it. This means that your tea will be alcoholic by default. Is that intended?
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Re: Brainstorm: Hard Brewing Mod
« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2014, 11:03:25 am »

Your end product will have to be a DRINK, otherwise dwarves will ignore it. This means that your tea will be alcoholic by default. Is that intended?

As for kombucha's place in a hard brewing mod, I'm inclined to say that dwarves won't drink tea until it's fermented, so their own brewing process includes the fermentation of the tea. So, all of these teas would be drinkable only as Tea Type Here Kombucha. I also like the idea of importing tea as a plant extract from elves and humans, and brewing it into kombucha :).
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samanato

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Re: Brainstorm: Hard Brewing Mod
« Reply #9 on: November 26, 2014, 12:40:00 pm »

Maybe tea bricks could be part of the process? In premodern east Asia, all kinds of tea were pressed into bricks (and often in powder form) for longer storage and transportation, which is still the current process for puerh. This was the precursor to matcha, for example. Tea bricks can also be eaten as food.

Tea would of course have to be quite valuable (maybe even [MATERIAL_VALUE:5] or higher still) since those bricks were used as currency.

As for the brewing, they follow different processes, depending on what you're brewing. For example:
- Wine is made by pressing the must from fruit and adding a yeast culture.  This would leave behind a pomace, which can be distilled into brandy (you could make wine of it too, but I like to think, it's too weak for dwarves' tastes). Making reactions for pressing has the advantage of putting Pressers to work, instead of being drafted as meat shields soldiers.
- Some kinds of fruits like banana need to be mashed instead of pressed, as pressing them doesn't easily extract juices. I personally just directly use the fruit itself as part of the brewing reaction.
- Mead is made from honey, which of course is sweet, so can be directly fermented when mixed with water.  Metheglyn is mead mixed with various herbs and spices.
- Grains don't have natural sugar as fruits do, so they must be malted, before it can be made into wort to be fermented. For beer, malting is simply done by letting the grains sprout, while traditional rice wine is made with a mould called koji. Koji is also used to ferment root starches like sweet potato in some kinds of shouchuu, and other grains like barley, or sorghum for Maotai (truly evil stuff, perfect for the dwarven taste ;)).
- Beer often uses a bittering agent for flavour and preservation.  Hops are the typical kind today, but in the middle ages wasn't universally used.  Toady notes bitter melon as a substitute, and other herbs like wormwood, bergamot, rosemary, even pine bark were used in traditional gruit recipes.
- Distilled spirits like brandy, vodka, whisky, soju, and maotai needs a fuel source for the distillation process. You would also make less of it, since you're boiling away a lot of the water. For the hard brewing mod you could use Vattic's idea, of processing the mash glob as with wine, rather than the drink itself, for less micromanagement. Rum would be made by processing cane syrup (or dwarven syrup) extract into molasses, fermenting it, and then distilling it.  Spirits should be much more valuable than a peasant's beer.
- For the extra cost of making spirits you could compensate by adding a syndrome that boosts up their mental stats or even agility. I like to think of that as the logical extension of alcohol keeping dwarves working at a tolerable pace. :)
- For things that aren't wine you'd theoretically need a water-source, but this is hard to do and needs DFHack, so might be skipped. Masterwork has a way to pull water by building a still on top of a water hole, that I can't quite remember.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2014, 01:19:30 pm by samanato »
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smeeprocket

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Re: Brainstorm: Hard Brewing Mod
« Reply #10 on: November 27, 2014, 05:33:59 pm »

Your end product will have to be a DRINK, otherwise dwarves will ignore it. This means that your tea will be alcoholic by default. Is that intended?

isn't milk a drink though? And it is not alcoholic.
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UnicodingUnicorn

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Re: Brainstorm: Hard Brewing Mod
« Reply #11 on: November 27, 2014, 07:34:41 pm »

In-game, milk is actually considered a "food", which is why even dehydrated dwarves don't drink milk.
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Ladygolem

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Re: Brainstorm: Hard Brewing Mod
« Reply #12 on: November 27, 2014, 08:29:50 pm »

If alcoholic tea is a problem, why not just make it a food? It'll require custom reactions anyway, so while you're at it you could make it a high-value liquid food. It could even give the eater some sort of attribute boost, if the value itself isn't tempting enough.

samanato

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Re: Brainstorm: Hard Brewing Mod
« Reply #13 on: November 27, 2014, 10:39:32 pm »

Dwarves don't "eat" liquid food like milk by itself. It would need to be cooked into a meal, which is hard, since dwarves prefer cooking solid things first. You could brew alcohol from certain kinds of milk, such as kumis (traditionally from mare's milk).
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smeeprocket

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Re: Brainstorm: Hard Brewing Mod
« Reply #14 on: November 28, 2014, 06:21:47 pm »

Clearly dwarves would be fond of Bilk

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