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[Burts]

I have seen many things die. I have even been instrumental in killing things. (farm kid + chickens and other poultry/animals == seen death. seen lots of death) I have also seen people die. (I was there as my grandmother died from complications of being over-dialized after she had renal failure, as EMTs tried to revive her. I was in the room when grandpa died of emphysemia. I have seen death, and in the cases of animals, everything from drowning, to evisceration.)

I dont like seeing things die, but I dont have a complete psych breakdown when they do.

dwarves live in a very hard world. By the time they reach adulthood, they should have become well aquainted with death, and only really violent, unnatural deaths should rattle them to the extent they are currently rattled.

Most people alive today do not directly have any experience with slaughtering animals or with high mortality rates, since most sources of such things are either abstracted away due to industrial scale processing or due to radically improved living conditions.



In the dark ages (real life), adult lifespan was not much past 30, and infant mortality rate was high.  Death from wild animals, disease, and farm accidents were very commonplace, and the regional lords did so love to fight each other using peasants as cannon fodder.

You cant allow yourself to look at this problem through a 1st world lens.  See enough death, it stops being as emotionally jarring. It never stops being completely jarring, but it stops being in the "OMG! NIGHTMARES!" category, and into the "that was really disturbing. I need a beer" category.

Yes, and that's why dwarves after seeing enough goblins die will eventually get traits "doesn't really care about it anymore" and will get thougths such as Urist mcUrist didint feel anything after seeing a goblin die. Although i'm not sure about this, but i think certain traits will also make dwarves happy seeing goblins die.

Basically the emotions system is very complex right now, so don't judge it at first glance. Basically the traits will decide how horrified the dwarves will be after seeing something die. Some dwarves will feel little to nothing, while some might go instantly bonkers and be overwhelmed by horror.

And in my fort, i had a population of 100. Forgotten beast came in , got obliterated, then all my millitary dropped dead from the extract in the hallway after a couple of days. They were lying there for a long time. Yet only a few dwarves got horrified to the point of being overwhelmed by horror, and only 1 dwarf got stressed (the fortress succumbed to HFS soon after, so maybe it needed more time for stressors to kick in)
There is also the disipline skill, which means that well trained millitary will not get horrified by such things.


And i think dwarves getting horrified and tantrums and what not is all part of the !!fun!! so i don't really see anything wrong with this.

[Dwarf4Explosives]

Although the "only really violent, unnatural deaths should rattle them to the extent that they are currently rattled" bit really doesn't narrow it down much, does it. Seriously, causes of dorf death that I've heard or seen recently include burnt tongue (licking magma, igniting the rest of the body seconds later), the infamous lignite-and-water-based burning trap and blistering to death. I am all for super-emotionally-tough, sociopathic murderdwarves, but if seeing those don't make you go either melancholic or completely and utterly bonkers, you can't possibly be sapient. Or sentient, for that matter.

[wierd]

I suggest you examine the kind of suffering that ysernia pestis (organism that caused the black death) causes.  It causes your lymph nodes to swell so large that they split open, and burst through your skin in bloody, raw lesions.

Really horrible deaths were quite common, and people became accustomed to them. Plague Doctors saw hundreds of such corpses daily, and further, saw the victims when they were stil alive, weeping in agony from their affliction.

Dont sell short a person's ability to become accustomed to horrible imagery and death.

[Dwarf4Explosives]

I'm not saying that horrible deaths don't or didn't happen. I'm just saying that the way that they did weren't anywhere near as varied as in the Dwarf Fortress universe. And in Dwarf Fortress, if it happens to one dwarf, it often happens to those that see it too. And when you've died, you very rarely get the chance to get used to it. More to the point, if you see a horrible cause of death just once and snap immediately, you also don't get that chance.

[Skullsploder]

But more importantly, DWARVES DO GET ACCUSTOMED TO DEATH. Yes. They do. After seeing enough gore they don't care anymore. In fact, they care less and less as they see more deaths all he way up until not caring about anything anymore.

I will grant that Toady should make witnessing worldgen deaths have the same effect on dwarves' psyches as in-fort deaths, and clear up the grammar with ''saw x die'' vs ''saw x dead''. But that is all. The system is pretty much perfect otherwise. Dwarves inexperienced with death may have small breakdowns the first time they see it. Many sieges later they will walk past rows of bloody heads unfazed. Seem about right?

And may I repeat that only a very small minority get permanently stressed by death as of 40.24. In a fort where everyone fights (civilians sans training), only 3 dwarves have ever tantrumed, out of 100. And that is a fort with communal rooms and no dining room.

[Thormgrim]

But more importantly, DWARVES DO GET ACCUSTOMED TO DEATH. Yes. They do. After seeing enough gore they don't care anymore. In fact, they care less and less as they see more deaths all he way up until not caring about anything anymore.

I will grant that Toady should make witnessing worldgen deaths have the same effect on dwarves' psyches as in-fort deaths, and clear up the grammar with ''saw x die'' vs ''saw x dead''. But that is all. The system is pretty much perfect otherwise. Dwarves inexperienced with death may have small breakdowns the first time they see it. Many sieges later they will walk past rows of bloody heads unfazed. Seem about right?

And may I repeat that only a very small minority get permanently stressed by death as of 40.24. In a fort where everyone fights (civilians sans training), only 3 dwarves have ever tantrumed, out of 100. And that is a fort with communal rooms and no dining room.

I think this is the gist, too.  If dwarves didn't seem to appear as completely inexperienced babes, popping out of worldgen but rather they were given skills and attributes that reflected the world experience we all seem to agree that would be appropriate, they wouldn't get so freaked out right away.

Wierd, for example, talks about how his life experiences on a farm have inured him to the sight of dead things.  One would assume that somebody growing up on a farm, around the butchery of animals might have "dabbling butcher" as a skill (albeit maybe rusty) and would have built up some discipline as well.

Just judging by the starting stats of immigrant dwarves they lead lives less like medieval peasants and more like early 20th century city dwellers... incredibly separate from any form of violence (and without TV or the internet to expose them to the imagery).

[LuckyKobold]

Dwarves should get a Morale Bonus for seeing Elf Corpses.

[TheHossofMoss]

I remember last night, we had a web-spitting alabaster dove with 3 horns on its head kill an entire marksdwarf squad and all but one of my fortress guard. The survivor was the one that killed it. He managed to not get webbed, and then hacked off the FB's wing, leg, and finally its head. He saw his entire squad (all legendary warriors, too) succumb to violent deaths (they were all grabbed, stabbed in the head with the horns, and then thrown). One lived for a bit after pretty much having his rib cage ripped open, and I imagine his organs were showing. He was on friendly terms with most of his squad, and a friend of a few.

In his description it said he saw each of them die. He'd seen combat before, had a pretty good kill list, and was horrified each time. But after seeing that, it said he didn't feel anything. Saw ~12 dwarfs die before him, and it completely numbed him. Completely. I couldn't keep that save. I had to save-scum it out. I've never felt sad playing this game (I often enjoy losing in glorious ways) until now. I may be being a little too emotional or dramatic... but damn.

But on another note, I just wish it would stop stacking up so many "Saw @$# die and was horrified." I wish it would just lump it together and just say "Was horrified at seeing so much death lately" or something of that nature, instead of a full-essay on a dwarf description screen.

[Melting Sky]

I suggest you examine the kind of suffering that ysernia pestis (organism that caused the black death) causes.  It causes your lymph nodes to swell so large that they split open, and burst through your skin in bloody, raw lesions.

Really horrible deaths were quite common, and people became accustomed to them. Plague Doctors saw hundreds of such corpses daily, and further, saw the victims when they were stil alive, weeping in agony from their affliction.

Dont sell short a person's ability to become accustomed to horrible imagery and death.

I bet they skipped to work everyday humming a jaunty tune...