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[Toaster]

If people are leaving everything over attacks, then no one is having fun.  I don't need a downer; no one here needs a downer.

[Tiruin]

Edited out that last post (which contained nothing Mafia related) because issue has been resolved over the Bay12 [#bay12lb > darkmyst server] IRC (by which nothing Mafia related is discussed)

[mastahcheese]

Do you think that anyone's reaction to the gambit and/or Flabort's reveal is alignment-indicative?

I honestly don't even know at this point, it's so confusing to me. There's too much "well, they could have done it for THIS reason..." that I'd prefer to examine them for other things than the gambit.
Granted, I'm sure it'll all make sense in hindsight, but for now, just...
Too much.

Ok, and now I've read to the most recent posts.

... I kinda feel like I should wait for Meph to make some kind of announcement on the situation now?

[Mephansteras]

I think the best thing for now would be to give 4maskwolf some time to relax, get some rest, and think on things. If he still feels this way later, we'll bring in a replacement. If he wants to continue, that's cool.

Mafia can be stressful, and I've found in situations like this that taking a step back and returning the issue the next day is usually best. Sometimes people change their minds, sometimes they don't, but we're not even to Friday yet so no harm in waiting a bit to see how things shake out.

[Tiruin]

Yeah that ._.

[Toaster]

I think the best thing for now would be to give 4maskwolf some time to relax, get some rest, and think on things. If he still feels this way later, we'll bring in a replacement. If he wants to continue, that's cool.

Mafia can be stressful, and I've found in situations like this that taking a step back and returning the issue the next day is usually best. Sometimes people change their minds, sometimes they don't, but we're not even to Friday yet so no harm in waiting a bit to see how things shake out.

Amen to that.  Sleep is good.

[Cheeetar]

4mask: I'm sorry I've made you feel bad outside of Mafia. When I criticise you, it's nothing to do with your intelligence or anything other than how you play Mafia, and I'm as fallible as anybody else when it comes to these evaluations. You often have interesting things to say, and I absolutely love some of the game ideas you've floated and hosted. Please don't let stuff I've said contribute to any desire to not play Mafia.

[Shakerag]

Amen to that.  Sleep is good.

Check your sleep privilege, you non-narcoleptic. 

[Toaster]

Someday we'll learn to stay up all week and sleep all weekend like you!

[Persus13]

Taking an intense Interim class, although most of the class time we watch and discuss films, and when I'm not doing work for that, I've been playing EUIV with some friends who've been pestering me about it for awhile now. So, I probably won't be posting regularly until after next Tuesday.

Mastahcheese:

TheDarkStar, Persus13, UXLZ: People start getting abducted. Is it better to switch your focus over to trying to find the alien, or do you continue trying to find dopplegangers? Why?

Stick to dopps, the aliens can be friendly, or at least, not anti-town, and scumhunting people can lynch the alien if necessary. However, if there's a choice between a known alien and an unknown dopp, I'll probably choose the alien unless the situation is bad.

notquitethere:

Persus13, how suspicious do you find role-fishing?

Depends on how new the player is and advanced the day. Early game with an experienced player is far more scummy then a newer player and late in the game. I haven't really ever used rolefishing to find scum, generally new or overeager town are the ones I've seen rolefish, so, not very important to me.

4maskwolf:

Well, thank you flabort for revealing yourself as anti-town.

Yes, I attempted a gambit.  I'll describe it as a Xanatos gambit where one of the two options would be a Thanatos Gambit.  The entire point of the gambit revolved around the general public not knowing about it, as it would draw undue attention onto me and mess up the odds of the outcomes to the point where the gambit is useless.

Since he decided to throw it open to the entire public, it is clear that he does not want the gambit to work and, as it was a pro-town gambit, is logically anti-town.

Also, why did you choose the three people you did?

If necessary, I will divulge additional details of the gambit, since it's now a moot point.

Flabort's post mentioned only that a gambit was being made. He did not say what it consisted of at all, merely that you two were in discussion of it. Upon revealing further details of a gambit, it didn't seem like one that could be wrecked by simply revealing that you were attempting a gambit. Why the overreaction?

You know what the problem in this game is, and all games of mafia in general?

Too many of you are stuck into the same old rut of how you think mafia should be played, and verbally beat down anyone who plays the game "the wrong way".  Just because you don't play that way does not make it "wrong" or "bad".  Your condescending attitudes towards others seem to be the entire crux of the reason why so many people left: that and your over-the-top combativeness over anything that doesn't fit your golden standard.

I'm not talking about you, flabort, I'm talking in this case about Jim Groovester, Cheeetar, probably ToonyMan, and likely a few others.

Jim: If I was killed by dopp, somebody "in the know" should have spilled the beans to everyone else of what happened to help narrow down who could be a dopp.  There was no "carrying the torch" there was just revealing the existance of the gambit.

I've heard this rant from you a billion times, and I've never really seen what you describe, even though I consider myself a regularly new player and most of my conflicts come from fighting the new crowd (Scripten , flabort) and not the old (with the exception perhaps of Jim). The majority of people I've seen leave left because they felt Mafia was too much of a time commitment. I agree that Jim especially can be condescending, but that's Jim's personality more than anything else.

Cheeetar, if you don't like my playstyle don't play with me, stop bitching about it.

Where does he do this?

UXLZ:

The correct answer with perfect play is (I believe) always 'no'. If you're hesitant or ambivalent about answering (or answer yes) you almost certainly have reason to believe being investigated is a bad thing, therefore you're a high value target for lynches or night kills. This leans towards anti-town due to the higher value of their identity compared to an ordinary human power role.

You believe my question was a trap- do you ascribe ill motives to my initial question as well?

The issue though is that the answer of 'No' is always suspect because it's the 'perfect' one. It may be true, or it may not be, but one can never be sure. It's kind of like a WifoM situation actually, unless I've misinterpreted it.  Then again, I may be bringing the mindset of the BM game I last did into this one, where there were only 2 power roles. (Making them very important.)

Sorry, trap was probably the wrong wording. More like a 'loaded' question. I couldn't see any way of answering it that couldn't be used against me. I don't believe you have ill-motives, though, and scumhunting is always good regardless. If you wanted to try and trap me you would have just pressed harder with more loaded questions, so I'm led to believe that you're just trying to find information, which is not in and of itself a bad thing.

The initial question was just a coincidence.

You're overanalyzing this. Someone answering a question right on a test doesn't mean they're cheating. While analysis is good, sometimes I mistake is just a mistake, and a question is just a question.

Personally I think the gambit was ill-fated from the start. Too many holes leading to too many false conclusions.

I'm still loathe to believe that this is the entire story. Wolfy definitely doesn't seem like someone who'd let a plot fail this easily. Then again, I've never played a game with her before.

Also, where you name the people you sent it to for 'quoting purposes', was that for after your presumed death or some other time? When was it for?

Wolf is probably most well known in these parts for a failed gambit where bussing his scum buddies hard to fool town into following his lead, and then getting shot by a suspicious vig one day away from 4maskwolf eking out a win.

Flabort:

flabort, why reveal Mask's gambit so quickly when you couldn't be sure whether he was being honest or not?

I cannot for the life of me see the gambit working. I'm almost certain he's lying or hiding something, or else the gambit could not work.

This is the first I've heard of this. Why were you all of a sudden certain the gambit would fail? You never stated this in thread until now, when 4maskwolf voted you.

Also, I'm a human vigilante and was planning to poke a hole in his gambit anyways. Revealing it instead of killing him serves my purposes and allows me to target someone else.
Now I've revealed too. 4mask, what do you say to that?

Revealing the gambit? or that you're a vig? Why did you add that you were human? It's unnecessary and is town claiming, basically.

Posting from right before class.

Flabort, so you outed a private investigative power role claim on Day 1 to everyone, including the scum? How is that pro-town to tell everyone that. You could have just summarized the gambit if you wanted to.

Yes. If he thought it was a good idea to reveal to three random people, then he should have been prepared to reveal to everyone else. I think that either he was lying to us or extremely short sighted, in which case he's now taking RIA by saying he didn't plan for me to do this. YEAH, I'M IN A BAD MOOD AND SAYING YOU'RE ACTING REALLY STUPID RIGHT NOW 4MASK. Because work is a BITCH, I HATE my job, and EVERYTHING keeps breaking down around my FUCKING EARS. YES, I'm in a bad enough mood to invoke the F-word. Go ahead and search my post history for that, it NEVER happens.

I did summarize the gambit at first. Here. And everyone accused me of being sneaky. Bleh.

The odds that the three random people he selected were dopps was 57.8%, and it is pretty obvious he didn't randomly select y'all, as he went with players who would have been okay with his gambits. However, there was still a possibility scum wouldn't get his claim, although it was possible only scum would get his claim, and he could have been taken down without that revelation being known. At any rate, revealing to the whole player group ensures that scum find out. I'm fine with you exposing his gambit, and I do think it was a dumb one, but I think revealing a claim, sent to you in secret, is something that is anti-town.

Also, I didn't see any accusations of being sneaky, more of statements that you can't expect support for your vote without knowledge of the context.

Deus Asmoth

flabort, how did 4mask blow up? I saw some shaky logic in his answer, sure, but not what I would call blowing up. How would poking a hole in his gambit by killing him not have made you look like scum? How does outing yourself do any more to put holes in his gambit than you'd already done by revealing his reporter claim to the scum team?

I think he's referring to the fact that 4mask opened up and attacked flabort for flabort's statement that 4maskwolf was discussing a gambit.

TheDarkStar:

TDS

A personal shield to avoid dying.

Reasonable enough for most of the alien wincons. What do you think of the recent Flabort/4mask exchange?

Flabort acted scummy in telling everyone about the gambit.

You never said you didn't want me to talk about it, you even included a line labeled "For quoting purposes". The other two participants can back me up on that if they want.
You also said it would only work to the end of night 1, but you never said that mentioning the PMs would reveal anything; you mentioned something else that would reveal if one of the participants were scum.

Notice I only said that there was a gambit going on. I never said the other two participant's names, I never said what your gambit was, or who said "OK, now you're acting weird".

Since you decided to neglect those details and form such a foggy plan (If A then one of XYZ are scum, if B than I don't know), it's clear you didn't expect it to succeed in the first place, and expected someone to spit a frog out of their mouth. You then pounced immediately on said person, devouring them for their 'mistake'.

The plan might have uncertainties, but it's certainly a method for finding scum. Why don't you want 4maskwolf finding scum?

It finds scum how? Also, flabort didn't reveal the gambit until after flabort attacked him for ruining it. This is easily the weakest vote I've seen so far on Flabort. Plesase put more content in your vote on flabort, and explain why this post was so short and skimpy.

Scripten:

Perhaps we should start a topic discussing mafia theory and try to keep talk here directed at the game content.

There's an old one that NQT started floating around.

P-Edit: Since 4maskwolf is replacing out, I'd like to advise people not to ask his replacement to verify his role or to talk about it. We should be keeping scum in the dark about whether the claim was real or not. WIFOM works both ways.

Agreed? I can see the benefits of this idea, but also the benefits of not doing this.

Persus13: Low content vote related to Flabort outing a potential PR - Persus13 has been very lurky so far

Inactivity =/= Lurking.

Toaster: Votes Flabort for claiming - Has been interacting frequently with the game thus far

Why are you basing the validity of the vote on the rest of that player's in-game activity? You do this with Toaster, TDS and myself, but I fail to see how that is relevant to the validity of the vote.

I'd like to also mention that we've got a wagon on a player for charismatic reasons, which aren't usually alignment-indicative. A problem I see in many mafia games is that the player who is least able to represent themselves is lynched before players who are displaying scum motivation behind their posts. While I see poor logic and some anti-town behavior from Flabort, I'm not sure if I see scum motivation behind his posting yet. (Though it's admittedly hard to tell because Flabort strikes me as a scummy player regardless of his alignment.)

So revealing a town power role claim is something you don't find anti-town?

Toony: Haven't played with you in awhile. What role would you want and why?

TDS: Last Paranormal you got lynched as a dopp D1. How do you plan on avoiding that this game?

Jim: Could you describe an instance where you've used PMs well in a Paranormal?

[Jim Groovester]

Jim: Could you describe an instance where you've used PMs well in a Paranormal?

Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

Hrm.

I've barely used PMs in Paranormals.

In Paranormal 23 I conversed quite a bit with makeinu using PMs, but only because he inspected me on N1 (if I recall correctly), found out I was an alien, and basically blackmailed me into working with him privately. I also talked to ToonyMan that game about not going along with some plan because I thought it was dumb.

In Paranormal 19.5 I used PMs to talk with people in dead chat because I didn't trust the medium and didn't want to reveal information, but obviously at that point if I'm dedzorz I'm not going to be contributing too much to the game.

Paranormal 18 had a four dopp team with a dopp vig on the team, and Leafsnail the Exterminator PMed me and the people he thought were town when it was 4 v 3 v 1 about coordinating votes to do a last minute vote gaming lynch on one of the dopps.

I suppose the gist of this is that there are situations when PMs are appropriate and useful, but those times aren't very frequent. Most often I think they're used to coordinate actions, especially if the secrecy is required, and that's arguably their best use. Very rarely do I think they're used for pure discussion.

[4maskwolf]

You know Persus, asking me questions when I've left the game isn't going to get your responses.

I confirmed this with Meph over pms, but I am going to be replacing out.

My apologies for stopping the game momentarily, that was not the intention.

[Scripten]

Persus13:

Taking an intense Interim class, although most of the class time we watch and discuss films, and when I'm not doing work for that, I've been playing EUIV with some friends who've been pestering me about it for awhile now. So, I probably won't be posting regularly until after next Tuesday.

That's funny. I just finished taking an interim film course. Mine was about zombie cinema, which was pretty cool. Fun class, for sure.

Inactivity =/= Lurking.

I think we just have different definitions here. I define lurking as inactivity. Active lurking is actually scummy. The reason I FoS'd you was because you had not interacted with Flabort before voting him, which made your vote bandwagon-y. Not as much as TheDarkStar's, since he's been more active, but hasn't generated very much content.

Why are you basing the validity of the vote on the rest of that player's in-game activity? You do this with Toaster, TDS and myself, but I fail to see how that is relevant to the validity of the vote.

The amount of interaction a player had with Flabort was my criteria here. Toaster had scumhunted him, while your vote and, moreso, TDS's vote seemed more on the bandwagon-y side. Bandwagoning isn't always scummy, but I had nothing else from you to go on at the time.

So revealing a town power role claim is something you don't find anti-town?

No, I do. I said that he'd done some anti-town things. The distinction was that I couldn't see scum motivation behind it. If he was scum, why bother revealing the role to the rest of the town? After all, as Jim already said, just killing 4maskwolf's slot wouldn't draw as much attention to Flabort as revealing the gambit obviously has.

[Toaster]

Scripten:

Fair enough. What would you suggest as an alternative strategy?

Well, see my own answer to the question.  Basically, cop results can steer your strategy, but don't let them go on autopilot.

I'd like to also mention that we've got a wagon on a player for charismatic reasons, which aren't usually alignment-indicative. A problem I see in many mafia games is that the player who is least able to represent themselves is lynched before players who are displaying scum motivation behind their posts. While I see poor logic and some anti-town behavior from Flabort, I'm not sure if I see scum motivation behind his posting yet. (Though it's admittedly hard to tell because Flabort strikes me as a scummy player regardless of his alignment.)

How should people deal with anti-town behavior that isn't tied to "scum motivation?"

TheDarkStar:  I agree with the several claims that your vote on Flabort is weak; I'd also like to see more reasoning behind it.


Flabort:

Did I say "hint hint"?

You might as well have.  Your comment was as subtle as a freight train.

Why the hell did I claim? Because now there's two goddamn priority targets for the scum, IF 4mask is telling the truth and not lying like I suspect. How deep DOES his rabbit hole go, if he claims we've got no idea? Pretty damn deep, probably past scum hell and back. And now there's two targets for any protector/doctor role... ugh, should have checked if there was a possibility of those, but I guess there are bodyguards. Hopefully there's one of the guardian variety, let's see if they pick me or mask.

Is this your reasoning or you agreeing it was a bad idea?

Excuse me, but if you're part of the "uninformed majority", you shouldn't have that attitude, you should know only as much as I do at this point.

Him having a different opinion than you doesn't make him scum.


Also, maybe you should take a minute to cool off before posting.


Jim:

Paranormal 18 had a four dopp team with a dopp vig on the team, and Leafsnail the Exterminator PMed me and the people he thought were town when it was 4 v 3 v 1 about coordinating votes to do a last minute vote gaming lynch on one of the dopps.

Also in that game, you as a sci with tracker bots asked me why I targeted you.  We talked a bit back and forth.

For the record, that game is why I so strongly support claiming miller (Kook) status in the very first post of the game.

I've heard this rant from you a billion times, and I've never really seen what you describe

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I have.  There's been several people who've come in with new and fresh approaches to playing Mafia; some good, some bad.  NQT sticks out as one person with a new approach that weathered initial criticism and still runs his way.  When NUKE9.13 came back, he got lynched over his stylistic differences and didn't play any more; I was disappointed.  There's a few other examples I've seen that don't spring to mind; sometimes people trying things that were unlikely to work.  I think sometimes people get convinced there's an "optimum" way to play and deviation is bad, but I don't agree.  The game is cerebral enough that the way one person gets results won't work for another person; and some people will spill more secrets from one method than another.

/ramble

[Deus Asmoth]

Meph, will 4mask's replacement be able to see all the PMs from his gambit or would they have to be forwarded on by another player?

Scripten, I can't help but think that's debatable. By revealing the gambit- and more importantly, the role Mask claimed- flabort guaranteed that everyone knew Mask's claim while under the guise of helping the town by revealing information. The way he went about revealing the information doesn't make it feel town orientated to me at all.

flabort, since you thought that people would be sending PMs so early on in the game, what did you think they'd be PMing about? Why would mastahcheese in particular be getting them?