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[pisskop]

Jim/Shakerag/Tiruin/Pisskop: this roleclaim drama is a golden gift to scum if both these participants are non-dopp. Do you think Flabort makes the best lynch today? If not then who?

Not the best.  I would have rather not have him lynched today, but since I suspect him I would lynch him before somebody I do not suspect.  Killing a claimed vig D1 is something I'm hesitant to do.
  We could see what he does at night, chain him up.  But I don't have a firm choice that I am set on voting yet.  I don't even have a 4th scum in mind.

  I'll have to gather myself, but I approve of suspicion on Tooney.

So vote him. Why didn't you?

I want to see his response.  I'd much rather vote for Deathsword than tooney atm.  Which I forgot to do in my last post.


Deathsword

  I'll have to gather myself, but I approve of suspicion on Tooney.

So vote him. Why didn't you?

I meant to vote Death in my last post, but forgot to.


---

Flabort:

  -Why have you not addressed me with any questions, considering I am the one you are voting?
  -Why did you claim with zero pressure on you?  tbh I cant even see scum doing that.

Deathsword:  I think you are following your pattern set by your previous games.  Namely your scum game is a more cautious and inactive one.  Adding the assumption that scum have private chat distracting them from their public face, I think you are the one person I'd like most to get a wagon onto.

  -Do you think you have hunted?
  -Do you think you have justified your votes thus far?
  -Who do you think is most likely in the town group?

Tooney:  You've struck me as quite a bit more active in D1 of the games I happened to look at.  So far you've done nothing more than cast a finger.


Cheetar:  Your particular style here seems to be focus upon one person at a time.  Would you agree, and what makes this an effective strategy when 1/4th of the players could well be dead by morning?

[Deus Asmoth]

NQT: Sure, the vig claim is easy to test. He might even be telling the truth about it, but being a vig doesn't exclude him from being scum in this setup. His actions are weird (making a post revealing the existence of the PMs, then sending a PM that implied he was going to go along along with the gambit, then claiming the reveal was accidental, all in the space of an hour and a half) and his planned method to put a hole in Mask's plan by killing a town power role is bizarre- sure, Mask could be lying about being a reporter, but the town response to someone claiming such a role is not 'Well, I'd better off this guy!'

Pisskop: how likely do you think it is that a quarter of the players will be dead by morning? Is there any particular reason why Cheetar and Mastahcheese are your lack of a better option scum picks?

[pisskop]

Just noting Cheetar's focused questionings, and Masta's general lack of content despite not quite qualifying as a lurker.

And 1 lynch, 1 scumkill, 1 vig and 1 other ability makes 4/ deaths

[Scripten]

Scripten: can you name a player other than Pisskop and Flabort that has done something suspicious today?

Missed this while writing my last post. Obviously, Toonyman feels slightly suspicious. I've also got my eye on Tiruin, whose play this game feels a little like her scum meta. Mastahcheese also feels different from town games I've seen him in, but I am not particularly suspicious of him as of yet.

[ToonyMan]

You missed my FoS, quit being lazy.

My bad.

DarkStar was the guy who is getting the most flack for jumping on the Flabort lynch train, so I'm going to go a step further and say you three are taking easy bait that's taking easy bait.

So basically you're saying that there's a lazy bandwagon of sorts on the lazy bandwagon.
Besides their weak stances against TheDarkStar do you have any other reasons to suspect 4maskwolf/pisskop, mastahcheese, and Persus13?

I generally just don't trust 4mask's "plans", I can't think of a game where he wasn't scum in doing so.

I'm mainly just messing around with Mastahcheese, and I don't have anything for Persus13 except that he's posting as frequently as I am.

  I'll have to gather myself, but I approve of suspicion on Tooney.

So vote him. Why didn't you?

I find this funny when you haven't voted.

Toony, why do you still have your weak vote on Cheese?  Last time you posted you didn't even mention him. It looked like you voted him for semi-serious reasons, so why not expand on the case?

Yeah, you're right. I try to gather as much as I can when I skim through posts and just lay out my thoughts. I don't really have the time commitment to pressure somebody multiple times in a day right now, so I figured sorting everything out in my head and posting at least once a day would be acceptable until I can remember specifics for every player emerging.

Toonyman: You haven't done a whole lot of actual scumhunting this game. You've been absent for RL stuff, and I understand that, but what posts you do have seem to state facts without drawing much in the way of conclusions. I would appreciate if you could give me a short summary of what you feel you've accomplished so far this game.

To add to what I said before. I don't find my Day 1 scum-hunting skills very strong. There's too many players, too much noise, and not enough specifics.

NQT: You seem to have some idea about associative tells that you're catching this game. I notice you have been suspecting Pisskop and Flabort of being on the same team, using the gambit to gain towncred through some means or another.

I could easily agree with the same conclusion really.

Tooney:  You've struck me as quite a bit more active in D1 of the games I happened to look at.  So far you've done nothing more than cast a finger.

While true, it's difficult to keep my level of posting when, since last Fall, I've been tackling half a dozen classes and multiple school-related jobs. I'm literally booked every weekday from 8am to 7pm with classes or work. It's a lame excuse for participation, but I enjoy Paranormal enough that I would still love to be in one. I figured as long as I can post something decent everyday and not do anything detrimental and confusing I can at least be seen as a semi-active, useful player.

Jim/Shakerag/Tiruin/Pisskop: this roleclaim drama is a golden gift to scum if both these participants are non-dopp. Do you think Flabort makes the best lynch today? If not then who?

Not the best.  I would have rather not have him lynched today, but since I suspect him I would lynch him before somebody I do not suspect.  Killing a claimed vig D1 is something I'm hesitant to do.

Scum claim vig all of the time though, can you think of a reason why this would be different?


Lastly, Unvote Mastahcheese.

....Shakerag.

NQT:

Jim/Shakerag/Tiruin/Pisskop: this roleclaim drama is a golden gift to scum if both these participants are non-dopp. Do you think Flabort makes the best lynch today? If not then who?

On one hand I think I tend to look at goofy D1 "gambitz" as predominantly things townies do, but I realize that that is dangerous thinking as well.  It wouldn't surprise me all that much if pisskop/flabort ended up both being scum.  However, that's pretty much idle speculation at this point. 

The one thing that bothers me on a gut feeling level is that I -think- flabort isn't stupid enough to claim town vig D1.  Which makes me think that he's possibly a war vet or has sentry guns ... or is scum.

An interesting feeling. Let me think, why specifically would Flabort claim town vig if he wasn't, and how does that affect you?

Overall, presently, I'm indifferent to a flabort lynch.  I'm not sure on the best lynch target right now, or otherwise I'd be voting them.

I noticed that, you unvoted from pisskop, who was involved in the huge 4maskwolf/pisskop and Flabort storm that swept through earlier Day 1. Why not stay on him? Are you going to go back to him, or someone else? Personally, I think Flabort is an okay lynch choice. I mean, worst case, he could actually be a town vig but shoot all the wrong people, right? (this isn't rhetorical)

*runs off from lunch break*

[UXLZ]

What's with the well wishes?

Basically because

The game has been a mess

'

You're grumpy, I thought it might have made you feel better.

Surely if somebody had compelling arguments for pisskop's scumminess they would have been presented along with a vote. Why are you asking for them?

It seeeeems like you're asking for permission from experienced players to suspect him. I can tell you with certainty that you will get no such permission nor should you be asking for it.

It was just a way of trying to move the game along, a sort of 'Anyone got reasons for suspecting this guy? No? Well then, let's find some.'
At the time, it seemed like there was just a lot of hot air blowing around... Maybe I misinterpreted it...

Also, it's actually a somewhat worthwhile question, since we've had at least two people keeping the reasons for their suspicion to themselves (pisskop, initially, for me, and Flabort, supposedly due to life) On the odd chance someone else was keeping to themselves, it couldn't hurt to ask.
Ah, it was the wording of 'compelling arguments' wasn't it? That was a bit of a verbal cock-up, rather than 'arguments that show he is definitely scum', I meant something more along the lines of 'arguments that show this discussion is worth continuing with at the moment.'
 

UXLZ/Scripten/Cheese: can you name a player other than Pisskop and Flabort that has done something suspicious today?

Tiruin feels like she's slipping under the radar a lot. Unless I'm missing something, she's made about six posts and three of them have been totally devoid of content.

Actually, just to make sure I'm not falsely seeing this, Everyone: is there a way to find all of a specific persons post within a thread? Like, searching, but for a poster rather than words.

[Persus13]

Scripten

Taking an intense Interim class, although most of the class time we watch and discuss films, and when I'm not doing work for that, I've been playing EUIV with some friends who've been pestering me about it for awhile now. So, I probably won't be posting regularly until after next Tuesday.

That's funny. I just finished taking an interim film course. Mine was about zombie cinema, which was pretty cool. Fun class, for sure.

Yeah, mine is a Theology through film class and it's pretty good, although the movies are fairly depressing.

Inactivity =/= Lurking.

I think we just have different definitions here. I define lurking as inactivity. Active lurking is actually scummy. The reason I FoS'd you was because you had not interacted with Flabort before voting him, which made your vote bandwagon-y. Not as much as TheDarkStar's, since he's been more active, but hasn't generated very much content.

In that case, that's fine. I have a problem with newer players calling it lurking mainly because while lurking (defined as having the opportunity to post but not doing so) is considered a scumtell while inactivity isn't.

Why are you basing the validity of the vote on the rest of that player's in-game activity? You do this with Toaster, TDS and myself, but I fail to see how that is relevant to the validity of the vote.

The amount of interaction a player had with Flabort was my criteria here. Toaster had scumhunted him, while your vote and, moreso, TDS's vote seemed more on the bandwagon-y side. Bandwagoning isn't always scummy, but I had nothing else from you to go on at the time.

Okay, misunderstood you there.

So revealing a town power role claim is something you don't find anti-town?

No, I do. I said that he'd done some anti-town things. The distinction was that I couldn't see scum motivation behind it. If he was scum, why bother revealing the role to the rest of the town? After all, as Jim already said, just killing 4maskwolf's slot wouldn't draw as much attention to Flabort as revealing the gambit obviously has.

That raises a fair point. I hadn't thought of that. If flabort is scum, he could have thought the gambit was a PGO's trap and done it in order to kill some town invests or proc roles, though.

Mastahcheese:

Persus13: I keep forgetting you're playing. I look back, and see you post plenty, but I keep forgetting you.

This is my third post of the game, so I've hardly posted plenty. Quit buddying, being unobservant or whatever.

Deathsword:

@Cheese:  Nope.  No role was mentioned up until that point.

pshh.  What made you think Im offering myself?

... you suggested yourself getting lynched as an option for you "to move on from here".

Yes, its one of our three options.  I included it for completeness.  You'll understand if I felt I entered the game in a vulnerable position.

One of your options was convincing people to move on from that. Why are you not trying to do that instead of explaining why you added the lynch option?

Because he got asked and voted on it by shakerag?

Toonyman:

The only other interesting thing I want to point out is that certain people love FoS'ing TheDarkStar, which seems lazy.
4maskwolf on Jan 21st at 8:43pm
Persus13 on Jan 22nd at 3:54am
Mastahcheese on Jan 2nd at 4:58pm

DarkStar was the guy who is getting the most flack for jumping on the Flabort lynch train, so I'm going to go a step further and say you three are taking easy bait that's taking easy bait.

I would think that it would be with good reason. He wasn't posting much and he barely justified his vote on Flabort. He's been pretty inactive recently and I didn't want to vote him over flabort, so I FOSed him.

Shakerag:

Looking at my '3 options'. I hope it apparent that they represent a negative, neutral, and positive outcome.  And thus three options were listed in such an order.

Uh huh.  Don't list options like we're supposed to pick one.  -Do- something that would make everyone gravitate toward a specific outcome. 

No one's just going to go "oh well, let's just assume 4maskop is town and carry on".  But what you choose to do may make the other players think that you're town.

So you're asking pisskop to manipulate people into choosing the choice he wants them to pick?

pisskop:

I hope you will agree this is my town game.

Stop worrying about how you are being perceived because of wolf and try to find an alternative to your lynch.

I've heard this rant from you a billion times, and I've never really seen what you describe

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I have.  There's been several people who've come in with new and fresh approaches to playing Mafia; some good, some bad.  NQT sticks out as one person with a new approach that weathered initial criticism and still runs his way.  When NUKE9.13 came back, he got lynched over his stylistic differences and didn't play any more; I was disappointed.  There's a few other examples I've seen that don't spring to mind; sometimes people trying things that were unlikely to work.  I think sometimes people get convinced there's an "optimum" way to play and deviation is bad, but I don't agree.  The game is cerebral enough that the way one person gets results won't work for another person; and some people will spill more secrets from one method than another.

/ramble

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I've definitely seen people be criticized for trying different things, but from what I recall, it was usually newer players, not the older Mafia crowd that did most of the really harsh criticism. I remember being surprised to learn a lot of the older Mafia players actually don't really care for RVS, they just see it as an optimum way of beginning the game (and eventually I've started to agree with them). I agree that it's one of the problems the Mafia forum has to deal with, but the last person I remember getting driven away for differences in play was GWG shortly before his ban, and he didn't seem like he really wanted to play Mafia anyway, just try and tell us all how we're wrong about everything.

Got to the top of page 19 and got tired of working on this post. Current suspects are Flabort, pisskop, and Mastahcheese. Scripten is seeming town to me, other than that, not a lot of strong reads either way.

[Persus13]

Tiruin feels like she's slipping under the radar a lot. Unless I'm missing something, she's made about six posts and three of them have been totally devoid of content.

Actually, just to make sure I'm not falsely seeing this, Everyone: is there a way to find all of a specific persons post within a thread? Like, searching, but for a poster rather than words.

Tiruin has become rather inactive as of late. She barely posted at all in the last few games I've played with her.

There's a Lurkertracker tool we have, but it's currently not working, I think. Can someone else confirm this?

[Shakerag]

ToonyMan:

An interesting feeling. Let me think, why specifically would Flabort claim town vig if he wasn't, and how does that affect you?

Dude.  I just said.  "Which makes me think that he's possibly a war vet or has sentry guns ... or is scum."

How does that affect me?  Well, it would make me leery of visiting him at night if I had an ability that would trigger war vet/sentry guns.  As it stands, I'm not sure if flabort did something incredibly stupid or if his claim is a ruse in some manner or another.  It's enough for me to keep an eye on him and see what he does and/or what happens around him.

I noticed that, you unvoted from pisskop, who was involved in the huge 4maskwolf/pisskop and Flabort storm that swept through earlier Day 1. Why not stay on him? Are you going to go back to him, or someone else? Personally, I think Flabort is an okay lynch choice. I mean, worst case, he could actually be a town vig but shoot all the wrong people, right? (this isn't rhetorical)

I just wanted to prod at pisskop a bit after he replaced in to see how he'd wobble.  I didn't have any good reason to keep a vote parked on him, and it was close enough to the end of the day that I didn't want to chance the day ending without me getting back to look at things more closely. 

I'm undecided on a flabort lynch.  There's a non-insignificant chance that he could be town and went full derp by claiming.  If you're trying to rally my vote for a flabort lynch then you'll need to be a bit more persuasive. 


mastahcheese:  Feels like you've been kind of quiet over there.  What were you expecting to see from everyone's reads at this point in the game?


UXLZ:  You seem awfully concerned about peoples' cases on pisskop.  And yet you haven't seemed to really indicate where you (or anyone else) should be pointing their scum-dar. 


Persus13:

So you're asking pisskop to manipulate people into choosing the choice he wants them to pick?

So what you're saying is that scumhunting and not dropping scumtells so that other players think you're town is manipulation?  Sounds legit. 

[notquitethere]

Jim

Basically, flabort is as good as dead and I don't think he's scum anyway. There are better uses for the lynch than a Day 1 vig claim.

There are better uses for the lynch... but you're not pushing an alternative case yourself?


Shakerag

Overall, presently, I'm indifferent to a flabort lynch.

What do you think to Jim's argument about the Flabort lynch:

Lynching a Day 1 vig claim seems like a bad idea since that certainly seems like a problem the dopps would want to solve for themselves. The vig kill is easy to verify and if flabort is an Exterminator (a vigilante is a good fake claim for an Exterminator) the dopps will want to kill him at some point. If he's a dopp vig then we've probably already lost.

?


Scripten

NQT: You seem to have some idea about associative tells that you're catching this game. I notice you have been suspecting Pisskop and Flabort of being on the same team, using the gambit to gain towncred through some means or another.

I asked one person (Shakerag I think) whether they thought it was possible. I think Pisswolf is most likely town and Flabort may or may not be town but doesn't make a good lynch choice as their claim is so easy to verify.


Deus

NQT: Sure, the vig claim is easy to test. He might even be telling the truth about it, but being a vig doesn't exclude him from being scum in this setup. His actions are weird (making a post revealing the existence of the PMs, then sending a PM that implied he was going to go along along with the gambit, then claiming the reveal was accidental, all in the space of an hour and a half) and his planned method to put a hole in Mask's plan by killing a town power role is bizarre- sure, Mask could be lying about being a reporter, but the town response to someone claiming such a role is not 'Well, I'd better off this guy!'

Yeah it's pretty bizarre and the things he's done would constitute grounds for lynching. But as his claim is so easy to follow up on, wouldn't we gain more information by killing someone else?


Toony

Yeah, you're right. I try to gather as much as I can when I skim through posts and just lay out my thoughts. I don't really have the time commitment to pressure somebody multiple times in a day right now, so I figured sorting everything out in my head and posting at least once a day would be acceptable until I can remember specifics for every player emerging.

I can't complain too much as we've both only posted four times in the game so far... I'm glad you've found something approaching a case now. Unvote.


UXLZ

UXLZ/Scripten/Cheese: can you name a player other than Pisskop and Flabort that has done something suspicious today?

Tiruin feels like she's slipping under the radar a lot. Unless I'm missing something, she's made about six posts and three of them have been totally devoid of content.

Actually, just to make sure I'm not falsely seeing this, Everyone: is there a way to find all of a specific persons post within a thread? Like, searching, but for a poster rather than words.

Tiruin has apparently made 16 posts, but they've not all been contentful. Here's what you have to do to check:

Go to the lurker tracker. Put this url into the  (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=147607.msg5971276#msg5971276) thread field. Click Sort By Number of Posts, and always check the box to clear the database first.


Tiruin, who is scummy today? You've managed to make 16 posts so far this game, so you can't have been too busy to make a case.

[UXLZ]

UXLZ[/color]:  You seem awfully concerned about peoples' cases on pisskop.  And yet you haven't seemed to really indicate where you (or anyone else) should be pointing their scum-dar. 

Did you miss my previous post about Tiruin? Though I appear to have been wrong, since I've found a few posts I missed.
The truth is that I kind of suck at D1 scum-hunting.

What's this lurker-tracker thing, by the way?

PPE:

Thanks NQT.

Tiruin has apparently made 16 posts, but they've not all been contentful. Here's what you have to do to check:

My estimate was off by a hell of a lot...

[Mephansteras]

The Whiteboard
pisskop: Deathsword, Persus13, flabort
Deathsword: pisskop
Shakerag: ToonyMan
Tiruin: notquitethere
ToonyMan: Scripten
UXLZ: Shakerag
flabort: Cheeetar, Deus Asmoth, TheDarkStar, Toaster


Day ends ~5pm Pacific Monday

[flabort]

Post coming in a few minutes.

[Cheeetar]

All: Awaiting confirmation from Mephansteras that this is allowed, but I had an idea. If y'all have things to say in the night that are fairly important ("looking back on it, I am fairly certain that that dude is French"), you should PM me and probably some other people just in case I'm scum what you plan on posting come daybreak, and if you die in the night we'll be able to quote it for you so your contribution isn't missed. Also: Do your last reads if you suddenly feel as if you might die, so now we have them for discussing.

Cheeetar:

Who do you find the most suspicious at the moment? (This is so we have something to work off if you die and flip town.)

This raises my hackles a bit.  You're voting for him; why do I feel like you're already covering for yourself if he flips town?

Probably because I needlessly mentioned we'd use it in the event that he flipped town. It's good practice to have the suspicions of all players (even scum) before they die.

Cheetar-- what is it about Flabort's play makes them specifically more likely to be scum than not? Or in other words, do you think his actions could be the calculated manoeuvres of an player with a scumteam backing? Or do you think they're a loose-cannon scum? Surely their vigilante claim is pretty easy to test?

The dishonesty and reframing of his reveal of it as an 'accident' because he claims to have not known people would ask questions about what he says in a Mafia game. I asked him to explain himself re: calling it an accident, and I don't believe his explanation.

Cheetar:  Your particular style here seems to be focus upon one person at a time.  Would you agree, and what makes this an effective strategy when 1/4th of the players could well be dead by morning?

If somebody dies, that doesn't mean my interactions with them are then useless- when they flip, their comments will be retroactively useful in determining the likely alignments of other players by who they interacted with and how they interacted with them. And I wouldn't agree that I've only been focusing on one person, although I don't fully grasp what you mean by 'at a time'.

Actually, just to make sure I'm not falsely seeing this, Everyone: is there a way to find all of a specific persons post within a thread? Like, searching, but for a poster rather than words.

Ctrl+F their signature is the best way I've discovered.

[notquitethere]

Seems reasonable if night PMing is allowed. Send it to two people though, just in case one is a lying liar.

Cheetar

The dishonesty and reframing of his reveal of it as an 'accident' because he claims to have not known people would ask questions about what he says in a Mafia game. I asked him to explain himself re: calling it an accident, and I don't believe his explanation.

Yes, I hear that. I think their behaviour would make them lynch-worthy ordinarily. But they have claimed something that is superficially easy to test and the attention they've caused is likely to soak up night actions regardless. Is a town vigilante an asset your willing to so quickly discard? (This is a genuine question: people don't always think vigs are pro-town given the rate of misfire.)