Topic: Blind Arms Race - Empire of Chang Shing Thread - 1913 design (Read 12566 times)

evilcherry · « **on:** June 19, 2016, 02:42:52 pm »

Main Thread:

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=158852.0

The Empire of Chang Shing, which has been there for thousands of years, and will be for thousands of thousands of years. The Wicked Manonerans has drained our fields to deny our access to rice, which is the best food for us. We have to stop them before our men are starved!

Chang Shing uses these weapons:

Spoiler: Chang Shing 1910 (click to show/hide)

Ukrainian Ranger · « **Reply #1 on:** June 19, 2016, 04:09:40 pm »

Lets not start with a firearm as every other arms race.

Rockets can be our natural focus... How about handheld rocket launcher? No tanks to snipe but HE warhead can be deadly. Also, imagine sailors firing those before raiding.

Also, we can start with a balloon rocket launcher platform going for aviation early

Or we can go immediately for the rocket v 2.0

Or go for a rocket propelled torpedo, not something they expect.

KiwiOui · « **Reply #2 on:** June 19, 2016, 06:55:41 pm »

Quote from: Ukrainian Ranger on June 19, 2016, 04:09:40 pm

Lets not start with a firearm as every other arms race.

Rockets can be our natural focus... How about handheld rocket launcher? No tanks to snipe but HE warhead can be deadly. Also, imagine sailors firing those before raiding.

~~+1 for Rocket Launcher.~~

Stirk · « **Reply #3 on:** June 19, 2016, 09:06:49 pm »

Quote from: Ukrainian Ranger on June 19, 2016, 04:09:40 pm

Lets not start with a firearm as every other arms race.

Rockets can be our natural focus... How about handheld rocket launcher? No tanks to snipe but HE warhead can be deadly. Also, imagine sailors firing those before raiding.

Also, we can start with a balloon rocket launcher platform going for aviation early

Or we can go immediately for the rocket v 2.0

Or go for a rocket propelled torpedo, not something they expect.

Hm, rocket launchers aren't great for anti-infantry design, especially if we are still using 400 year old muskets. They are marginally more useful against ships, but then we would have to miniaturize our current technology while significantly improving accuracy, which would be difficult to achieve quickly. Accuracy is also a massive problem for any torpedo we would make, ships are fairly difficult targets and our current rockets are mostly for psychological effect.

I think the biggest priority-which would help with later weapon design firearm or rocket-would be to get a new propellant/explosive out the door. Black powder is good, but it is a little outdated for the time. A better explosive would allow for much more powerful rockets, while a better propellant would improve the current firearms while opening the door to more complex designs.

griffinpup · « **Reply #4 on:** June 19, 2016, 10:06:33 pm »

Hey I'm on this team! Post sometime later

RAM · « **Reply #5 on:** June 20, 2016, 02:49:45 am »

I share the concern over the "start with a rifle" phenomena, and we do already have one and a half(filthy bread-eaters!) of the things, but a carbine for the cavalry and navy would be really very very convenient...

Ehh, stuff it, throw in an incendiary warhead and I am all over those rockets!

Half-tempted to take things way-too-far and suggest a recoiless rifle...

Maybe some rifling on the rockets themselves? Does anyone here have any rocketry knowledge that suggest that inducing spinning on an unguided rocket is a bad thing?

Code: [Select]

Fire Sparrow
A 30mm* rocket with external rifling and and an updated propellant mixture permitting it to fly without wings. It uses a simple payload of a lard and rice-alcohol mixture*** in a clay bottle
which is heated to combustion by a conductive rod running the length of the rocket**. It is launched from a reusable steel tube trailing a Y-shaped prong behind it and holding a crank-adjustable
bipod underneath for precise controls when braced against the ground, but can also be launched from an under-arm grip in emergencies.

* I intend something small, I assume that the crow is larger than 30mm and like the idea that we already produce 30mm tubes for our muskets, but ehh...
*** So, we could probably look into quicklime or phosphorus or something that would be more effective, but this should be sticky and flammable and patriotic. Also I want to try to be somewhat restrained somewhere in the design so it isn't completely insane)0-0(.
** Probably impossible to actually get this to work, the rocket propellant really isn't designed to work as a heating device. So I am mostly counting on enthusiasm to override sense...
)0-0( I am, of course, completely insane, so if this is to be taken seriously, someone else should formalise up an alternative!

KiwiOui · « **Reply #6 on:** June 20, 2016, 08:08:17 am »

Different idea:

Water Serpent Carbine

This 13mm carbine is designed for use, where a full gun would be bulky or inconvenient. As such, the butt of the gun contains a 4 round magazine, fired using a percussion cap, out of a rifled barrel.

((I'm basing this off of the Civil War-era's Spencer Repeating Rifle.))

Stirk · « **Reply #7 on:** June 20, 2016, 11:12:01 am »

Quote from: RAM on June 20, 2016, 02:49:45 am

I share the concern over the "start with a rifle" phenomena, and we do already have one and a half(filthy bread-eaters!) of the things, but a carbine for the cavalry and navy would be really very very convenient...

Ehh, stuff it, throw in an incendiary warhead and I am all over those rockets!

Half-tempted to take things way-too-far and suggest a recoiless rifle...

Maybe some rifling on the rockets themselves? Does anyone here have any rocketry knowledge that suggest that inducing spinning on an unguided rocket is a bad thing?
Code: [Select]
Fire Sparrow A 30mm* rocket with external rifling and and an updated propellant mixture permitting it to fly without wings. It uses a simple payload of a lard and rice-alcohol mixture*** in a clay bottle which is heated to combustion by a conductive rod running the length of the rocket**. It is launched from a reusable steel tube trailing a Y-shaped prong behind it and holding a crank-adjustable bipod underneath for precise controls when braced against the ground, but can also be launched from an under-arm grip in emergencies.* I intend something small, I assume that the crow is larger than 30mm and like the idea that we already produce 30mm tubes for our muskets, but ehh...
*** So, we could probably look into quicklime or phosphorus or something that would be more effective, but this should be sticky and flammable and patriotic. Also I want to try to be somewhat restrained somewhere in the design so it isn't completely insane)0-0(.
** Probably impossible to actually get this to work, the rocket propellant really isn't designed to work as a heating device. So I am mostly counting on enthusiasm to override sense...
)0-0( I am, of course, completely insane, so if this is to be taken seriously, someone else should formalise up an alternative!

Spinning does stabilize rockets (we could probably do something like the Hale Rocket design), but adding a guid stick would probably be easier. 30mm is silly small for a rocket, most early ones where in the centimeters (like 50 of them), and even modern ones are often a lot bigger (an RPG-7 is 40mm for example.)

KiwiOui · « **Reply #8 on:** June 20, 2016, 11:51:14 am »

Yeah, now that I think about it, rockets would be great, but they don't seem like a first turn action. Perhaps, once armored vehicles are developed, we can build some explosives to counter it.

RAM · « **Reply #9 on:** June 20, 2016, 03:56:17 pm »

I figure that an incendiary rocket can somewhat get away with being stupid-small(with explosives you get more velocity and radius from the warhead's diameter, with incendiaries, much of the value is its tenacity and there is more value from quantity so you can have a longer warhead), and would be useful for cavalry that want to make a mess and get away and naval forces where conditions are cramped and there is lots of wood. But please do post a better rocket!

Stirk · « **Reply #10 on:** June 20, 2016, 04:08:50 pm »

Quote from: RAM on June 20, 2016, 03:56:17 pm

I figure that an incendiary rocket can somewhat get away with being stupid-small(with explosives you get more velocity and radius from the warhead's diameter, with incendiaries, much of the value is its tenacity and there is more value from quantity so you can have a longer warhead), and would be useful for cavalry that want to make a mess and get away and naval forces where conditions are cramped and there is lots of wood. But please do post a better rocket!

Missiles should never fire in cramped conditions, the back blast would probably hurt our own ship if we tried to use the current version on naval vessels (or an updated handheld version), and that type of incendiary weapon wouldn't have much a purpose in the current conflict (mostly that kinda firebomb would work well against cities, fortifications, and other things that are hard to kill but weak to fire. Infantry/carvery in a field isn't in that category). It would certainly be useful if we could use it in our naval conflicts, at least until they make ironclads. Even cavalry can't really use it effectively, it is a heavier weapon that would prevent the troops from wielding their main weapon effectively, while not doing much to actually harm the enemy. Y

For the record, we have oil technology

. This would be much more effective for use in incendiary weapons than your makeshift equipment.

As I said before, I think our best bet is making a better propellant or explosive, instead of relying on gunpowder for everything.

evilcherry · « **Reply #11 on:** June 20, 2016, 07:24:38 pm »

I would like to see a quick tallying of votes.

griffinpup · « **Reply #12 on:** June 20, 2016, 08:30:27 pm »

+1 to move past gunpowder. That seems like a good prereq to anything we want to do anyways.

Stirk · « **Reply #13 on:** June 20, 2016, 09:13:57 pm »

Quote from: evilcherry on June 20, 2016, 07:24:38 pm

I would like to see a quick tallying of votes.

Handheld rocket launcher: 1 (Ukrainian Ranger, ~~KiwiOui~~)
Finding an improvement to gunpowder as an explosive/propellant: 2 (Stirk, Griffinpup)
Fire Sparrow: 1 (RAM)

At last I think that is how the voting breaks down due to the most recent posts. Correct me if I am wrong.

KiwiOui · « **Reply #14 on:** June 20, 2016, 09:25:02 pm »

Quote from: Stirk on June 20, 2016, 09:13:57 pm

Quote from: evilcherry on June 20, 2016, 07:24:38 pm
I would like to see a quick tallying of votes.

Handheld rocket launcher: 1 (Ukrainian Ranger, ~~KiwiOui~~)
Finding an improvement to gunpowder as an explosive/propellant: 2 (Stirk, Griffinpup)
Fire Sparrow: 1 (RAM)

At last I think that is how the voting breaks down due to the most recent posts. Correct me if I am wrong.

I proposed a carbine.

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Author Topic: Blind Arms Race - Empire of Chang Shing Thread - 1913 design (Read 12566 times)

evilcherry

Blind Arms Race - Empire of Chang Shing Thread - 1913 design

Ukrainian Ranger

Re: Blind Arms Race - Empire of Chang Shing Thread - 1910

KiwiOui

Re: Blind Arms Race - Empire of Chang Shing Thread - 1910

Stirk

Re: Blind Arms Race - Empire of Chang Shing Thread - 1910

griffinpup

Re: Blind Arms Race - Empire of Chang Shing Thread - 1910

RAM

Re: Blind Arms Race - Empire of Chang Shing Thread - 1910

KiwiOui

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Stirk

Re: Blind Arms Race - Empire of Chang Shing Thread - 1910

KiwiOui

Re: Blind Arms Race - Empire of Chang Shing Thread - 1910

RAM

Re: Blind Arms Race - Empire of Chang Shing Thread - 1910

Stirk

Re: Blind Arms Race - Empire of Chang Shing Thread - 1910

evilcherry

Re: Blind Arms Race - Empire of Chang Shing Thread - 1910

griffinpup

Re: Blind Arms Race - Empire of Chang Shing Thread - 1910

Stirk

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KiwiOui

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