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[FantasticDorf]

I'm saying that you're overcomplicating things and assigning logic to areas that are not where they actually lie. The corpse stockpile and burial probably use the same logic to determine if something belongs there, but it's almost certainly not the case that it is the corpse stockpile determining what goes into burial. It's almost definitely something in the unit, like, say, the dead_dwarf flag, which we've already determined is being assigned incorrectly, which I would say is the whole of the bug from what we can actually determine and thus needs no more research.

There are very simple methods to apply if you actually try exploring the subject, and it is consistent to stop fortress grave robbing & allocation of materials so that they rot inside burial receptacles.

> Kill dwarf & clear dead_dwarf=true with seperate graveyard & refuse stockpile, they will move between 1 and the other and become accessible/unaccessible for slab carving respectively.

(or if that fails for whatever reason, use a pet since they are also exposed to dead_dwarf=true when not slaughtered)

[Max™]

Yeah, the burial bit is still an extra bug, though even then the presence of dead_dwarf being set as true for sapients would be fine if there was an ethics check for use/consumption of those corpses.

Previously it seemed to be used to keep us from turning our dwarf heroes into jewelry and food in fort mode, now a more logical explanation of the behavior as possibly intended is that it is set broadly to keep us from turning our tavern visitors into, say, food for other tavern visitors.

Originally though, it was only set in a fort, now it is set everywhere, which would also be fine, if there was an ethics check on the use of those materials which would be a unit soul structure, not a graveyard one.

[FantasticDorf]

~snip~

Its the only thing stopping auto-cannibalism (elf animal eating?) too in eating sentient cultures (because goblin meat as i've mentioned before in a same goblin cvilisation when a goblin zombie is slaughtered will go to the refuse pile and be inedible so it is a waste of time)

I already pointed out my strong suggestion of visitors being implicit [PET_EXOTIC] in the last few posts as a reason why dead_dwarf=true is triggering despite those travellers never having to be tame, just on account of toady find a way to make them work so naturally use a exploitation of existing game structure. (without the consequence incurred accounted)

Pets go to graveyard = Intelligents are pets and therefore go to graveyard, on paper it sounds like all travelers would end up in the graveyard and be a ideal situation (until the part that works and messes up ethics of races who eat sentients)

> [PET_EXOTIC] is missing for intelligent pets in civs, even when supplied with [COMMON_DOMESTIC] in 42.01 onwards, and like this issue report details 0001691: combining the tag [PET_EXOTIC] with [CAN_SPEAK] produces odd results to save you the effort of making raw modifications to a previous version on 40.24 is that with the exact same tags of [PET_EXOTIC] and [COMMON_DOMESTIC] for intelligent pets, they become more or less full citizens.

I don't personally think thats a bug Max, just a existing game system given more power post 42.01

There are thoughts to be disgusted by viewing certain acts sure probably within soul structure/thought system somewhere, but no actual individual opinon values to justify [PERSONAL_MATTER] ethics as they could work, in goblins its just accepted anyway. Im sure i've mentioned this a few times before.

You saw yourself how the ethics changed when you left site boundaries, its mostly governed by site & more precisely who originates from where for the ethical code. (dont forget the influence of controlled territory too as shown on legends historical maps, which might show the reach of how far ethics will go before dead_dwarf=true would activate on 40.24)

[Putnam]

~snip~

Pets go to graveyard = Intelligents are pets and therefore go to graveyard, on paper it sounds like all travelers would end up in the graveyard and be a ideal situation (until the part that works and messes up ethics of races who eat sentients)

No, citizens go to corpse stockpiles. Pets are citizens.

Also, calling it graveyard just adds to the confusion, they haven't been called that for 6 years.

[Max™]

gui/gm-editor *targeted  unit*status.current_soul.personality.emotions

Inside those entries you can do things like change it so you talk about how thrilling it is to get beaten, being euphoric or aroused over killing someone, being disgusted over starting a new romance, disappointment at being reunited with a loved one, and so forth.



There is a SawDrinkBlood thought, adding a SawEatSapient would be simple enough.

I don't think the pet idea would work, there's a whole entry for that, and being a pet requires an owner, plus it generates a structure tracking the pet behavior (don't make an item a pet as an adventurer, it gets creepy) while theorizing about why this stuff happens might help figure it out, we can see those sorts of structures and determine what is going on already.

Previously it only happened in fort mode for citizens, I had a Gorlak that died in my caverns but the body rotted away, though I'm sure the corpse had dead_dwarf=false, while one exterminated with dfhack now gets dead_dwarf=true.

Similarly: Trolls, CAN_LEARN+SLOW_LEARNER and capable of being brought as pets by goblin civs, right?

Well, a troll corpse was sitting in the caverns from my 40.24 save and sure enough:


Yet killing it now would get it flagged dead_dwarf=true so this is a weird new bug with sapients all being set, while before only fort citizens got it set.

I've got lots of zombie corpses on the volcano at Cathelms but that doesn't help because they don't get dead_dwarf=true now, though it does make me wonder why we weren't eating the dead zombies back then... well, besides the blue ruphie sludge all over everything outside.

[Putnam]

gui/gm-editor *targeted  unit*status.current_soul.personality.emotions

Inside those entries you can do things like change it so you talk about how thrilling it is to get beaten, being euphoric or aroused over killing someone, being disgusted over starting a new romance, disappointment at being reunited with a loved one, and so forth.

Or you could use the DFHack script (which I wrote!), add-thought.

[Max™]

Ah nice, hadn't noticed it, I was in there exploring the different responses I gave/got and started poking around in it.

[FantasticDorf]

~snip~

Pets go to graveyard = Intelligents are pets and therefore go to graveyard, on paper it sounds like all travelers would end up in the graveyard and be a ideal situation (until the part that works and messes up ethics of races who eat sentients)

No, citizens go to corpse stockpiles. Pets are citizens.

Also, calling it graveyard just adds to the confusion, they haven't been called that for 6 years.

Eh, that's the more terminologically correct way to put that.

Previously it only happened in fort mode for citizens, I had a Gorlak that died in my caverns but the body rotted away, though I'm sure the corpse had dead_dwarf=false, while one exterminated with dfhack now gets dead_dwarf=true.

Similarly: Trolls, CAN_LEARN+SLOW_LEARNER and capable of being brought as pets by goblin civs, right?

Well, a troll corpse was sitting in the caverns from my 40.24 save and sure enough:


Yet killing it now would get it flagged dead_dwarf=true so this is a weird new bug with sapients all being set, while before only fort citizens got it set.

That troll would end up in the refuse pile (unusable by ethics unless you already had the ethical requirements) which is where non citizens like goblin invaders or the typical merchants are sorted, ethics changes the rules so those bodies become selectable.

• I see and understand what you mean Max in refferring it to yet another bug (without some confirmation from toady on changelog) the dead_dwarf=true behaviour is also bugged/altered beside the scope of what it effects.

I don't personally see the issue with calling it a graveyard stockpile, its a nicer resolution than calling it a non-refuse stockpile or corpse pile A & corpse pile B

> The theory for pets being implicit sentients is well founded if you consider that when they die they are inherently a intelligent (meaning they are sorted for their local) but they are also a pet not owned by anybody (no tamed tags nessecary, and renamed when they re-enter the visitor pool) with a ID cultural identity (for its own ethics) but partial to a site & travelling between place, a pet for hire on the move. This gets trickier when they are part of a wilderness population aswell.

I also didn't mean (pet pet) i mean a pet token class of creature (More explicitly a PET_EXOTIC intelligent, which in version 40.24 joins the citizens screen & can perform full duties at the level of a citizen) which [PET_EXOTIC] has been altered because you can't set it in raws anymore or import any intelligent exotic pet materials (no animalmen leather etc.)

> I remember seeing somewhere (not firsthand) that gremlins apply for citizenship afterwards to make the leap from [PET] livestock to [EXOTIC_PET] citizen. Im referring to this in the same scope of 0010124: Full citizen petitioning for citizenship where a child born inside a fortress that had been repeatedly retire/unretired started displaying behaviour to sign up for a petition.

> My theory is that child on multiple retires/unretires has become a pet associated with the site during the time that timeframe of multiple retires/unretires as it now uses visitor code to be the scheduled visitor in range to visit the site. When the child via GM editor is selected to be "left=true/false" in flags, they will dissapear & will reappear on the side of the map & can enter the map.



The child if it remains on the map but just comes as a new arrival off the side of the map to go play with the only toy in the fortress will also change name. This is a picture of them after GM testing where they became a visitor type. As the issue report says, they are trying to join their own entity from the site of your fortress is already at.

[Max™]

What is this about pet exotic?

Code: [Select]

[NAME:giant elephant:giant elephants:giant elephant]
[CASTE_NAME:giant elephant:giant elephants:giant elephant]
[GENERAL_CHILD_NAME:giant elephant calf:giant elephant calves]
[DESCRIPTION:A gigantic monster in elephant form.]
[POPULATION_NUMBER:15:30]
[CLUSTER_NUMBER:3:7]
[CREATURE_TILE:'E']
[COLOR:7:0:0]
[PET_EXOTIC] <---?
[PETVALUE:500]
[MOUNT_EXOTIC]
[GO_TO_END]
Does it not work now?

[FantasticDorf]

On full intelligent only Max it wont work. Even with [COMMON_DOMESTIC], only regular [PET] full intelligent pets work

On non sentient creatures it is fine.

> You can't embark with any ethic set, with savage wild animal-men materials and or deliberately for the purpose raw modded [EXOTIC_PET] can learn/can speak pets. Gremlins are the only available choice for materials, given they are the only natural [can learn/can speak] [PET]

Those snakepeople on 43.05 a few posts back with the normal UI but still dead_dwarf=true were all regular [PET] (domesticated, can be imported) pets. Explicitly when i tried to define them as [PET_EXOTIC] the game ignored even [COMMON_DOMESTIC] for offering them me on embark.

(EDIT - I can rubbish the previous rehash now i think i got it)

EDIT - As it turns out removing [ALL POPS CONTROLLABLE] from each race is not enough but im still trying to get tame pet gremlins to petition.

> This may also be relevant - dwarves on a retired site of another civ cant be buried 0010069: Reclaim ruined fort as different civilization -> burial issues


Time to clear the deck i have a new off-topic bug. (I was starting to get confused on the previous topic's new turn anyway)

Meeting sites can't be decommisioned, unless the site is destroyed & continue to function after the meeting site is deactivated and made inactive as long as the area is still standing. Turning off the area type & setting to inactivity does nothing to disperse the dwarves.

Leading to locations stealing dwarves when they go to fufill needs & not releasing them into meeting zones. Dwarves will stand around still commiting socialisation actions forever until they go for food drink jobs or sleep. Then walk right back into the tavern and stand there forever again getting caught until the activities area is destroyed.

This is exactly the same behavour in temples & libraries.

Ill write out the issue report on mantis in the morning.

[Max™]

Hmmm, did you check under the world_data.sites[your site id].realization.buildings and the sites[your site id].buildings fields? Removing something there will clear it from the df.global.world.buildings list as I recall.

[FantasticDorf]

Hmmm, did you check under the world_data.sites[your site id].realization.buildings and the sites[your site id].buildings fields? Removing something there will clear it from the df.global.world.buildings list as I recall.

Behind the scenes i guess that'd work. Removing the area outright with (x) clears it, but otherwise it will always be a meeting zone unless it's to my experience, designated otherwise. (in R, the zones yield no information but appear to be correct)

But just de-activating the sites (so they work as a meeting area-less area dwarves come back to anyway) and adding a singular active meeting zone works just as well. (dwarves with very casual needs will actually go & hang out at meeting zones when this is done but go back & get trapped by the locations again but as long as the active blank meeting zone is availible they will go there)

> Kind of showing that meeting zones & occupation zones are not overlapping but rather being overwritten hence why they aren't making relationships, if it was working 'as intended' they'd leave as soon as they cleared (maybe needs are imbalanced?) for the meeting zone which they should not be making a difference between standing in a tavern doing meeting zone & tavern routines.

As soon as the meeting area is 'turned off' (remove meeting area status and/or set to inactive) animals will bail and move to another area but dwarves will stay (even in blank turned off meeting areas, meeting areas just determines whether they can move there or not actively)

• Maybe dwarves can't dance because they are not friends all my goblins who hang around the caravan are inclined to dance without instruments, but that might just be that i got lucky and rolled a music type adequate for the 10x10 dance floor zone.

Issue report is up - 0010129: Buggy meeting sites behaviour breaking locations (and meeting sites function)

Edit - It actually seems that meeting sites overlapping onto locations directly causes dwarves to seriously over-indulge in fufilling needs, however when the meeting site zone & active is removed. When i remove a meeting site & set it to non active over a worshipping centre (like pictured temple still recieving dwarves), only the dwarves who actively worship those spheres/religion will even visit despite there being no meeting site.



So in a way, the solution to fix sites is to just fully turn them off, and therefore people wont over-indulge, its still a major bug however since if you even set a meeting site accidentally on ONCE, it will always remain in the background until the site is forcibly removed. Only dwarves who are 'slightly distracted' or more visit the tavern wheras dwarves who are in the tavern active meeting zone will always over-fill that need. (and hence be more liable to die)

> I have also i think discovered that (because i actually got some long term resident artists to leave the tavern & hang out in other places) tavern goers do require to have their merryment needs fufilled before they can leave properly. They only auto-leave with any frequency because the meeting site is keeping them entertained. (visitors still arrive while meeting zone on tavern is off and path into it to fufill tavern activities)

Bonus - i just got this off one of my generated worlds where elves managed to overcome the goblin civ by sheer mass of elephants

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Ill load up GM editor, embark with some tame member gremlins then delete the member associations to see if the fact the gremlins (and by extension trolls) already being a 'member' of the site confuses them when they are supposed to be pets and then try to get the gremlins to petition later as to join the proper civilian population.

I've also removed all traces to adventure mode, (its just not a option anymore) so if it does have anything to do with local pops, or a specific tag on travellers like [LOCAL_POPS_PRODUCE_HEROES] i can narrow it down. Gremlins have neither tag and are usable [EXOTIC_PETS] so its a good place to start.

Removing local pops from creatures doesn't change the accessibility to wild creature-men materials (though night-wings on evil deserts became available but probably generation-luck on evil deserts being savage), if all the animal men just become heroes (aka join civs) or once 1 example of a animal man becomes a member, would it affect all of the rest of the race rather than that individual, interesting to look into.

> Prior evidence would strongly suggest it, as site-trained gremlins are not members, and previous child applying for a petition in that issue report wasn't a site member either.

Objects on graveyard/corpses stockpiles aren't read by stockpile managers until set to dead_dwarf=false

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

While on the subject i also found out by using the DFhack stockpile manager with a non-dead_dwarf=true object and setting via CTRL [X], that previously unavailable materials like tooth and horn become available when usually queued.

This must be a seperate bug (or blown out of proportion feature/bugfix) in which butchery/workshops have hard capped rotting barriers but exposed skinless BP parts (and skeletons hence why races stopped butchering super small animals & bones = no meat content) must count for being 'rotted' because they are in a supposed by game logic late state of decomposition with no flesh.

In theory it should apply to additional no bone/meat content like scales & chitin, though i dont have any examples to show you right now.

It works great on my removed dead_dwarf=true troll ivory.


If there isn't one already ill make a fresh issue report about that.

Done - 0010130: Refuse stockpile disallows 'rotted' items from being used in reactions - teeth/ivory, horn (hotfix included)

[Fleeting Frames]

You got people to only indulge as much as needed in locations?

As opposed to the contrariwise behaviour, where they stay in tavern even with red prayer needs, so long as 'normal' job doesn't take them out the tavern.

*tests*

Hm...Failed to replicate with painting 3 meeting zones and then making two tavern and temple and then deactivating meeting and active settings (in 43.03, as opposed to .05).

Had a guy keep Mediating on Earth even after getting their praying needs into bright green (ardent worshipper).





What's more, they returned to nothing-location zones after drinking.



Ultimately had nobody but pets idling in the active meeting area. Which is neat for a catch-all pasture, but that's it.



Did you never set the zone to meeting area and assigned location to it with dfhack or something?

[FantasticDorf]

You got people to only indulge as much as needed in locations?

~Snip


Ultimately had nobody but pets idling in the active meeting area. Which is neat for a catch-all pasture, but that's it.

Did you never set the zone to meeting area and assigned location to it with dfhack or something?

Ehh, i guess i should explain in more detail.

My tavern had been up for a while (2 years? or so), if you deactivate it while the patrons are already inside (when it is active) they will sit where they are until they've had their fill. If they aren't being entertained by people telling stories/activities they wont go away so it might be slightly attributed to skills gained in speaker or poetry over time for satisfaction. They will drink of the tavern booze supply while in the tavern preferentially to stockpiled booze (hence a dwarf as reported will visit their favourite tavern to drink)

> More dwarves inclines more range of personalities so eventually you'll get dwarves who outright don't care compared to those who are always inside the tavern. Wait for migrants rather than fast test with the starting 7 to get a wider range. A common trend is that those with 'occasionally overindulges' detailed in white (below dreams and above needs) will actually overindulge like intended and keep their need filled.

• Its to be expected with dwarves to a certain degree because they are naturally immoderate and the culture promotes merryment. A stoic race that is not [ALCOHOL_DEPENDENT] might enjoy a bit of tipple but aren't compulsive drinkers. Dwarves with no pressing traits or that have had thier fill without over indulgence or 'strong cravings' will usually pull away unless there are some nice storytellers/performers.

My big ol' resident religion of death (you can find it on the related save) had a bunch of (more or less the same) stories to tell repeatedly about how the dwarf necromancer began worshipping the god of death. The action of them telling the story worked as a purple fufilling action (given i had no instruments)



I would not recommend using a no specific deity space as they might try to worship different gods for communion forever. Specific temples for specific worshipers fulfilling their own needs works fine for me. (in above picture the dwarf worked through their needs first filling them up then moved onto prayer, doing so until they run out of things to do and idle in the meeting area)



My save has moved on with play a bit, tavern is top left, and death-temple top right, at the bottom i have a inactive meeting zone overlapped with a 'zoo' (a cage meeting area that is always active) and some spare animals for dwarves to gawp at (picture isn't flattering) most of my dwarves will fufilled needs or no strong needs are hanging out here.

Here is a random mechanic chilling in the zoo meeting room that has come back from the tavern with a good amount of needs fufilled, the only thing that might pull them back is a need to see art if not to drink/be merry/take it easy. Currently they dont care about taking it easy so aren't fufilling it.


Amusingly it turns out that dwarves argue a lot while (still friendships are very rare) drunk (a inebriation condition rumoured to never wear off) meaning dwarves are not happy drunks just loud rude and bashful which other dwarves do not appreciate

• bring good speaker stats on dwarves with good linguistic & wordsmith skills to make dwarves happy with good art & supply drink i would recommend because instruments are unreliable.

So it turns out dwarves do still talk, but the rudeness of inebriation causing no friendships is universal to drunkards. Not like you have happy drunks, sad drunks & angry drunks like in real life, perhaps the only friendships maintained that aren't passing acquaintances are those between immigrants or people who really really don't mind rudeness.

• If acquaintances wont dance together because they are too drunk and arguing instead of bonding because they require friends to do certain actions it might explain why sober dwarves around the caravan make friends with each other quickly compared to dwarves after their first sip of booze (whic as i mentioned before is reported to never wear off)

Found a bug while i was making a sober tavern, temple & meeting place setup like the areas described above to test my theory based on facts that dwarves who are drunk (syndromic forever due to drinking constantly) are too rude to make friendships with one another and progress forward with relationships.

Fish won't path out of rivers (to join worldpop) unless the exit doesn't contain water or a lethal amount (3/4 or less) of water for fish which is walkable for land creatures, meaning dwarves drinking from that section of the river are liable to get sucked in & drown too by stepping inside the dangerous river path. Here you see tigerfish all piled ontop of each other, the living tigerfish is air choking on insufficient water, while the other two tiger fish are already dead.

• some milkfish on at embark moved on and off the map as soon as i touched the river channelling, creating the conditions for them to leave causes them to leave very quickly when they've been there long enough (season roughly)

I made this by channelling water underground to create a well so that my dwarves are happy drinking clean water from a organised spot rather than breaking cover to run for the river. Fish occasionally get sucked in but its not major enough to strand them there. Fish panic when they get caught in a strong current.

Its also a strong possiblity they aren't pathing out as per wilderness (but milkfish migrating out creates arguement for that) but are instead fleeing or being pulled towards by the current water pressure the slowly drying up 2/7th's of water river exit. Why fish can't path through water competently might be related to flying creatures hovering in the air aimlessly even when they have places to be (like flying tavern guests)

I can see the bug report now - "Fish can't swim"

• this is actually true  because if you observe the soul DF structure of a fish and its skills, it does not have the natural ability to swim & will constantly exclaim about dangerous terrain.

(Trying to leave via a river exit with 2/7 of water cosied up to a skeletal tigerfish & a rotting tigerfish that couldn't make the journey while the water was shallow enough to not be dangerous)

The no booze friendship pair off didn't got quite, as expected. All my founding dwarves all became readily good solid friends immediately but migrants & my own starting seven wont talk to each other. Not a single thought of talking to one another. Though my embark buddies are hitting it off dancing in the tavern with each other.



I think i have found the culprit, my animal trainer has a 'need' to spend time with friends so will make friends to achieve this goal but not passively talk to other dwarves (because they already have 6 other buddies and are lime green happy) / (Or alternatively dwarves will not talk to strangers not from their own site)

• Other dwarves just become "friendly terms" and don't progress past that even when aggressively forced into a meeting area room together. All of them have bad talking statistics, because they dont have the need compulsion to make friends and therefore talk to one another.

> Dwarves with a need to argue, argue constantly as much as their needs require it, same as with other need activities.

• The clerk was a bit unpopular, but dwarves like making friends so will reciprocate advances by dwarves with a need to make friends.

The thought system really ripped up the game mechanics in ways we're only now realising (with supplied bugs) and in my own verdict could REALLY do with rebalancing

[Max™]

Should probably branch the tavern/zone part off to a new thread since it's covering a whole different aspect from the sapient consumption bug.