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[evictedSaint]

Lowering the expense of horses requires control of the plains.

Lowering the expense of armor requires control of the mountains.

Lowering the expense of ships requires control of the jungle.

[10ebbor10]

Why?

Why change those rules mid-game, for no reason. It was never mentioned before. Why protect Moskurg like that?

We spend quite a lot of effort on our cavalry (making those spears was hard), and now you suddenly spring it on us that we can't improve them for no apparent reason?

For reference, the actual bonii :

With control of the mountains, you are now able to finally exploit them to their fullest, as was done in the days of glorious Arstotzka past.  You will receive an effective Expense reduction for all primarily metallic mundane items you design in future, for as long as you retain control over this region.

[evictedSaint]

That's the process Iituem used.  Those three are powerful aspects of combat, and to lower them below Expensive requires the territory bonus.

Moskurg will never get cheap, full-plate armor without the mines in the mountains.  You can't get cheap, plentiful horses without the plains to raise them.  And neither side will get cheap, plentiful ships without the wood from the jungles.

Otherwise there's no point to holding an entire territory if you can get those bonuses through regular design/revision processes.  What's stopping Moskurg from designing cheap full-plate of their own this turn, if that's not the case?

[10ebbor10]

No it wasn't.

I quoted the actual post where he explained the bonusses. What Iituem did was give use a bonus on any expense rolls for stuff, thus making it easier for us to design cheap stuff. Basically, anything that used the bonus was 1 tier cheaper than what the rolls said it normally would be.

It was never a lock for designing new equipment.

Those three are powerful aspects of combat, and to lower them below Expensive requires the territory bonus.

Okay then. But then be fair and take away Moskurg's cheap bows. Without the Jungle they should not be able to cheapen wooden items, after all.

If that is your logic, be consistent.

Otherwise there's no point to holding an entire territory if you can get those bonuses through regular design/revision processes.  What's stopping Moskurg from designing cheap full-plate of their own this turn, if that's not the case?

If Moskurg has expensive armor, they should be capable of using an expense credit too make it cheaper.

If they used their rolls, they should get what they roll for, but without the bonus that we got.

Territories should not lock people into strategies, especially if said restrictions are never revealed. They may give bonusses to certain restrictions, as was explained earlier.

[evictedSaint]

Their shortbows started out cheap, and their turn spent Designing and Revising the compound bow increased the quality.  Iituem essentially gave you an expense credit on all metal production for as long as you hold the mountains.  Furthermore, he made it clear that utilizing the bonus requires a turn of modifying your production capabilities to handle the new cheap material.  I interpret that as requiring the territory to gain that expense level - is that unreasonable? 

[10ebbor10]

Their shortbows started out cheap, and their turn spent Designing and Revising the compound bow increased the quality.  Iituem essentially gave you an expense credit on all metal production for as long as you hold the mountains.  Furthermore, he made it clear that utilizing the bonus requires a turn of modifying your production capabilities to handle the new cheap material.  I interpret that as requiring the territory to gain that expense level - is that unreasonable? 

Yes.

There's no reason to assume that just because we can reduce cost with a territory bonus, that we can't use revisions or credits to do it, when we've been doing that continuously with other stuff.

And yes, if we can revise cheap things to be as good as complex things, then we should be able to revise complex things to be as cheap as cheap things. Otherwise you're giving a benefit to the group which started with the cheap stuff.

In fact, the plains never gave a bonus to horses.

In fact, Iituem specifically noted that having the plains give bonii to cavalry would be too powerfull.

If Moskurg can hold the plains, they will receive extra resupply and a reduction in expense for items or effects that rely on manpower in some way, due to the plentiful population on the plains.  I may change that if it's too weak or too powerful, but the other options were too overpowered or nonsensical (research bonuses due to libraries were flat out overpowered, cavalry bonuses would probably help Moskurg too much versus if Arstotzka took the plains, double resupply was OP as well).

So, I highly doubt this was ever Iituem's system.

[stabbymcstabstab]

Those restrictions my aboslutly no sense at all. Like they make aboslutly no sense at all, all the wood on the island isn't in the jungle and all the horses don't live in the plains so why are we restricted all of the sudden?

[10ebbor10]

Yup.

This honestly seems like a post-hoc rationalization to protect Moskurg's cavalry advantage.

[Iituem]

Greetings from China!  Looks like Bay12 isn't blocked here after all (to my surprise).  A brief note to say that I'm not intervening or trying to overrule Saint, this is a comment with their invitation.

Regardless of my original intent on the nature of the territorial bonuses, Saint is GM now and therefore his decisions supercede earlier ones I may have made.  Indeed, altering the nature of the terrain bonuses to essentially raise a maximum 'cap' on material usage is an excellent idea and in the spirit of the game.  More importantly, it does not change what has come before; you only created plate once it became possible to do so with excessive metal.  If Saint wants the same to apply to ships, that's their call, although my personal feeling is that a jungle restriction on wood should perhaps restrict high quality wood in ships (making powerful ships but less frequently) and making megaships of some sort.  As ever, however, Saint has the call here.

Similarly, if Saint feels that they can balance a cavalry matierial restriction on the plains, they can feel free to do so.  Probably this just means either nerfing the nature of the bonus or improving the bonus in the other territories.  I won't give details away of the other thread, but from my observation they've done an excellent job of applying such a nerfed penalty without getting carried away in either direction (too weak or too strong).

[10ebbor10]

More importantly, it does not change what has come before; you only created plate once it became possible to do so with excessive metal.

It does actually.

I would have argued against the cavalry lance-thing if I'd know cavalry would be a dead end for us by an arbitrary restriction that by all accounts appears to have been invented on the spot.

Changing rules after the fact with clear benefit for one of both parties is not good behaviour.

[RAM]

This doesn't seem to be going anywhere. Losing is Fun!?

[evictedSaint]

I will retract the mechanic requiring the related territory to be held in order to allow expense levels below Expensive for certain techs.

It was a poor decision to impose it, and for that I apologize.  I assure everyone that it wasn't an attempt to protect Moskurg, but instead a fumbling on my part as a GM.  I hope you guys can forgive me for the mistake.

Territories will provide a bonus to solid -1 to the overall expense for newly researched techs that relate to them, as they did before.

[evictedSaint]

Would someone mind tallying votes for this revision phase, please

[andrea]

We have 5 votes for fixing anti magic charm and one for cheaper minor fireball.

I believe expense on horses and attacking the desert win as well, but I can't read accurately the thread now.

[evictedSaint]

Revision: Anti Magic Charm [2]

Excellent news!!!  Thought we've had to go through pounds of diamonds to do it, we've managed to revise the spellwork that makes the charm explode into a violent cloud of crystal shards!

As it turns out, gemstones have a property known as their "resonance frequency" - essentially the critical vibration that causes a feedback loop in an object.  By adjusting the absorption rate of the diamond, we can lower the input frequency to something less volitile.  The magical energy still has to go somewhere, though, and as a result the gemstone grows unbearably hot in the presence of magic.

It's...a decent way to warn the wearer they're being casted on, but the high cost of the components means it's limited to the theatre commanders in the field.

What to spend the Expense Credit on?