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[Pozzai]

What you're describing is pretty standard for early game: people will form opinions and will make accusations, and some of them are already starting to do so now based on people's play so far, but the game is still young and those opinions have little to back them up.  The claims are merely a way to facilitate discussion and fish for reactions that can be used to form actual reads.

 I am aware what the purpose is, but that it takes this long to get out of it is frustrating to say the least.

 I have NEVER had a game where I nearly 24hours into a game didn't have a townread somewhere, and the one dimensional questions asked doesn't bode too well for me.

 I would've expected now that for instance Jack had returned they'd be like "so this is all the amasing information I got" to progress the game, instead they returned with a rather bland bunch of responses.

[4maskwolf]

What you're describing is pretty standard for early game: people will form opinions and will make accusations, and some of them are already starting to do so now based on people's play so far, but the game is still young and those opinions have little to back them up.  The claims are merely a way to facilitate discussion and fish for reactions that can be used to form actual reads.

 I am aware what the purpose is, but that it takes this long to get out of it is frustrating to say the least.

 I have NEVER had a game where I nearly 24hours into a game didn't have a townread somewhere, and the one dimensional questions asked doesn't bode too well for me.

 I would've expected now that for instance Jack had returned they'd be like "so this is all the amasing information I got" to progress the game, instead they returned with a rather bland bunch of responses.

Bay12 is one of the slower communities out there in terms of posting speed, the only reason I'm even remotely as active as I am right now is it's my day off and many of the others work jobs where they can't exactly post during the middle of the day as well.

But alright then, you're looking for townreads.  how do you go about finding them?  What would you use to get these reads and why aren't you actively pursuing that now?  If you are actively pursuing reads on others, what's getting in the way of having those reads.

[hector13]

Ah ya bastard I was going to ask why they weren't doing anything to get the reads

[Jack A T]

I feel like a majority of the questions were irrelevant for the progress of the game, and that your whole questionaire thingie, was more just to get your voice out, than to actually impact the game.

Pozzai: This is quite normal.  Most of the questions were not meant to directly push the game into something actually useful.  Generally, my main goal with start-of-game questions is calibration: gaining some more insight into other players so I can account more for their personalities when getting reads later.  Yes, that does include "how do i byor."  It's what these questions are actually useful for, as opposed to what we try to make them do (push us out of RVS).

The theme falls within my ongoing spree of stunt openings, in which I try to get something of actual value by behaving abnormally.  This one sort of fizzled.

[Pozzai]

What you're describing is pretty standard for early game: people will form opinions and will make accusations, and some of them are already starting to do so now based on people's play so far, but the game is still young and those opinions have little to back them up.  The claims are merely a way to facilitate discussion and fish for reactions that can be used to form actual reads.

 I am aware what the purpose is, but that it takes this long to get out of it is frustrating to say the least.

 I have NEVER had a game where I nearly 24hours into a game didn't have a townread somewhere, and the one dimensional questions asked doesn't bode too well for me.

 I would've expected now that for instance Jack had returned they'd be like "so this is all the amasing information I got" to progress the game, instead they returned with a rather bland bunch of responses.

Bay12 is one of the slower communities out there in terms of posting speed, the only reason I'm even remotely as active as I am right now is it's my day off and many of the others work jobs where they can't exactly post during the middle of the day as well.

But alright then, you're looking for townreads.  how do you go about finding them?  What would you use to get these reads and why aren't you actively pursuing that now?  If you are actively pursuing reads on others, what's getting in the way of having those reads.

 Who says I haven't, and wont it counterwork the attempt if I explain what I do to get them?

[4maskwolf]

Ah ya bastard I was going to ask why they weren't doing anything to get the reads

Too slow.  Find your own things to push on.

Who says I haven't, and wont it counterwork the attempt if I explain what I do to get them?

I certainly didn't, I accepted both possibilities, and perhaps.  It all depends on the method through which you get them.

Leaning town on you for now, not gonna bother pushing any further on the matter.

The theme falls within my ongoing spree of stunt openings, in which I try to get something of actual value by behaving abnormally.  This one sort of fizzled.

Yeah and I'm glad for it, hopefully people will stop doing that shit soon. [/tiltedgrumping]

[TolyK]

Do you want to chat? There's a way we can chat in private. I can give more details regarding the actual experiment there. Are you up? (This would possibly eventually add more folks to said chat).
I'm tentatively trusting you, mostly because there's historically been little I can actually read from your posts (only from actions).

TolyK: Trust by virtue of unreadability is odd, but private chats have a tendency to be nocturnal chats.  Night chat access is valuable.  I doubt you're a cult leader, and if you are, you're gutsy enough to deserve this.  Invite me.
Do note that I cannot guarantee support for the actual experiment.

Sent the action in. Yeah, I like chatting during the night. Also, assuming we have a normal town/scum balance in this game the probability of you being town is higher than the town's average winrate, so I think I'll take the risk either way.

[Shakerag]

FoU:

Skrag:
1. How relevant are peacocks to your role?
2. Do you think such a vague question deserves to be called role fishing? Is it scummy? If so, are you going to pressure me about it?
3. On a scale of 1(least) to 11(most), how important to the game do you think themes are.
4. You are given a post restriction that requires you say "nyah" at the end of each of your sentences. You also learn that it'll disappear at the end of the next night, but anybody who hits you with an action will be given the exact same auto ability. Do you make any attempts to persuade people to act on you or not act on you?
5. Are you a serial killer? Answer clearly, please, for the sake of a hypothetical truth teller.
6. What do you think the probability of there being a truth teller in this game is?
7. Why do you think I asked each of these questions?
8. Finally, are there any of these questions you didn't answer, and why?

I thought there was something annoying that I missed. 
1 - Not relevant.
2 - No.  No.  No.
3 - 2.
4 - tl;dr
5 - No.
6 - 3%
7 - Because you're shitposting.
8 - 4, tl;dr.

I'll be possibly back tonight for some drunken shitposting of my own.

[hector13]

Ah ya bastard I was going to ask why they weren't doing anything to get the reads

Too slow.  Find your own things to push on.

Who says I haven't, and wont it counterwork the attempt if I explain what I do to get them?

I certainly didn't, I accepted both possibilities, and perhaps.  It all depends on the method through which you get them.

Leaning town on you for now, not gonna bother pushing any further on the matter.

Oh come on, you can do better than that. Why do they get a town lean?

Who says I haven't, and wont it counterwork the attempt if I explain what I do to get them?

I think you're the one saying you haven't, else you wouldn't be complaining that you're not getting reads on folk.

It probably won't counteract the attempt if you explain it, I don't think you need to resort to some weird ass double blind study to get a townread. Anyway, seeing as how you're implying you've laid these plans down somewhere, I imagine it'll allow us to get a read on you if you provide an example, even if it does counteract your efforts. Just as useful, no?

The theme falls within my ongoing spree of stunt openings, in which I try to get something of actual value by behaving abnormally.  This one sort of fizzled.

Yeah and I'm glad for it, hopefully people will stop doing that shit soon. [/tiltedgrumping]

Er... sometimes they're alright. The only problem is when the stunt overshadows everything else for the rest of the day.

[flabort]

You may not have played with me but you have modded me.

Ah. I thought the name was somewhat familiar, but like I said I couldn't recall playing with you. If I modded a game you were in that makes total sense.

To rephrase, I think of FoSing as archaic because it's a term I personally stopped using seven years ago in favor of just...not using a buzzword to describe my thoughts instead, but the significance of it is obviously both site meta dependent and in-thread context dependent.

A problem I'm having with this RVS is that I have no idea how asking a bunch of individuals hypothetical what-would-you-do-if-you-had-this-exact-role questions as well as a lot of the theory questions I've seen are productive. Way more people are focusing on these things than would be non-town in a standard game. The emphasis on asking specific formulaic questions to specific people en masse was something I struggled to get reads from in my only past game here that I didn't replace into. So yeah, I do have a bad attitude about bay12's early day1 meta which is probably coming off as snotty, or "naive" as you call it.

Well, I guess each site does have it's own Day 1 meta - one site I played on was all random votes, no discussion, and then counter-votes with no reasons, until a big wagon formed and then everyone jumped on the wagon, still no discussion. So when I first encountered Bay12's meta of RQS instead of RVS, I was completely lost.

We do come off as a bit uppity sometimes - and our meta is set in it's ways now, so not being able to match it IS naive; perhaps, more "naive" as in "oh, this is my first time in highfalutin noble society, let me just blow my nose on these curtains" than "naive" as in "these are mean streets kid, and if you don't wisen up someones going to shoot you dead". But then, that formulaic, set-in-our-ways day 1 meta does help us get better collective reads.

What do you think of that term, Collective Reads (which I just made up based on our standard set of terms )?

I wouldn't have minded. I do think it's an acceptable way of scoping out players new to a site, to get some pressure on them and see how they react, if they potentially is the crumbly sort of cracker.

 I think there's a huge difference in doing this to people who are new, and people who are new to a site, and personally wouldn't do it to completely new players because it's a bit douchebaggerish, and while I can be intense and blunt while playing, I still do put fun > winning.

 So who would be capable to do it to a new on site player, more or less everyone, and I have no feelings towards them, hard or otherwise, the few who would not are probably the people most interested in giving newsite players the most positive experience possible.

 Who that'd be specifically in this game, Idk \o/

 Gonna shower and catch up on rest of thread afterwards !

Well. This throws me off a little, but now I have a better feel of what to expect from you. Thanks for this. I can't tell, have you played on this site before? You almost sound like... you've been reading the thread about making games more newbie friendly, haven't you? Well, I don't expect veteran level play, but I do expect high-level play - your comments about not being new to mafia support this expectation.

flabort

Shakerag
Which mafia game in this forum was your favorite to play? What did you learn from it that you can apply to this game?

Hmm.  Hard for me to remember a lot of the games I was in.  Bastard Paranormal 2 was a favorite.  Paranormal 20 was another awesome game. 

What did I learn from those games?  Don't lose?  Inspections are awesome?

Soooo... nothing that will help with scum hunting or RQS. "Power roles rock", basically. Well, I guess I'll be keeping a cautious eye on you.

flabort

Good to see you back, I enjoyed the time I played one game with you, and I think I learned a bit from it too.

Anyway,

Hector13
If you were town and I wrongfully voted for you over a vote you made, what would your reaction be?

This is an odd question. My answer will, of course, depend on my interpretation of the word "wrongfully".

If you were "wrongful" in voting for me, in the sense that your vote was not well-founded, I would have to point that out, and consider why you were voting in that circumstance. Chainsaw defense? Buddying my target? I'd press you on it, see if I could divine the motivation behind it.

Any vote would be "wrongful" on me if I knew I was town, but I imagine my response would be the same if I was scum anyway. I like to think I have a strong enough day game that I can construct a case that people will follow, so I'd press you on your vote, divine the reasons for it, and then try to deflect onto who I thought was scum, presumably the person I'm voting in this scenario.

What do you think I'm finding odd about this question?

You find the ambiguity, the "if you were town" part, and the part where in that hypothetical scenario I set myself up as the scum all to be odd. Was I right?

I'm almost certain you and I played more than one game together, by the way. Glad you think you've learned from our game(s) together, I always strive to learn more and to share my knowledge.

I like your answer by the way. Very astute.

Flabort:

 The FoS and the question towards me both feels very 'hands off'. Plays it safe in an attempt to not rock the boat, this overly carefulness is more scumindicative for me.

Ahahahah. This is where the game gets REALLY started. Afraid to say that is my personal typical first-half-of-day-1 play, playing the part of the detached judge while the lawyers bicker it out. Once I start seeing results from my and other RQS questions, I start getting into the deep and gritty parts of it, arguing it out over the littlest details like Pheonix Wright fighting for a shred of evidence.

I also see that you think Doll was TOO into it. Is there an optimal level of activity, in your opinion?

I find it amusing that, if doll is telling the truth, infinite actions are possible with just 1 role this time. Usually it requires 3, or mayyyyybe two, roles to work together...

Ah, but is this repeatable, or is it like a supernova like they are claiming and using it blows up in their face?
Down this path, madness lies, with speculation and WIFOM. I too find it amusing, but for different undisclosed reasons.

Pozzazi: How do games usually go down in the meta you're used to?  What are the most important parts of the game and what is most important to keep an eye out for?  I'm not familiar with the general meta for any of the sites you've played on, only Mafia Universe and Bay12.

 More individual thoughts than direct questions to the game as a whole. More focus on reads and less on claims.

 Like up to this point I have very few indicators of where anyone stands, because it's just a circular discussion about claims, that we can't even process today at all, this presuming people who are town are even telling the truth in the first place.

 I feel like the majority of what has been said, including everything I've said, is NAI. No one is drilling into people's opinions, because there's next to none, no pressure is added, and this feel like at some point during the day someone will throw out a name, everyone will go "well, I don't have anything better so lets go" and a random person will be lynched by that.

 The sites I have played on have been very different as well.

 DLP/Fantasystrike focuses heavily on rulesets where claiming is generally out of necessity, not as something you do early, because  there's severe punishment to claims through scum actions.

 Personalitycafe meta is fairly fluffy, but still with a focus on getting reads through interactions, as opposed to claiming stuff and make in general one-way questions. Personalitycafe is fairly weak in terms of mechanical analysis, while DLP/FS is the opposite.

Hmm. In later days, I think we get to be more like both those sites - after a few flips, we discuss reads more than we discuss most other things, but claims have a lot more weight to them than the circular discussions that are going on right now.

I first played mafia on the Giant in the Playground forums, which had basically no mechanical analysis, no reads analysis, and claims were ignored half the time. The RNG was god, bandwagons for the sake of bandwagoning was common, and speculation was taken as fact. That was a long time ago for me, though.

FoU:

Skrag:
1. How relevant are peacocks to your role?
2. Do you think such a vague question deserves to be called role fishing? Is it scummy? If so, are you going to pressure me about it?
3. On a scale of 1(least) to 11(most), how important to the game do you think themes are.
4. You are given a post restriction that requires you say "nyah" at the end of each of your sentences. You also learn that it'll disappear at the end of the next night, but anybody who hits you with an action will be given the exact same auto ability. Do you make any attempts to persuade people to act on you or not act on you?
5. Are you a serial killer? Answer clearly, please, for the sake of a hypothetical truth teller.
6. What do you think the probability of there being a truth teller in this game is?
7. Why do you think I asked each of these questions?
8. Finally, are there any of these questions you didn't answer, and why?

I thought there was something annoying that I missed. 
1 - Not relevant.
2 - No.  No.  No.
3 - 2.
4 - tl;dr
5 - No.
6 - 3%
7 - Because you're shitposting.
8 - 4, tl;dr.

I'll be possibly back tonight for some drunken shitposting of my own.

Ah yes this is typical of Shakerag. He's town guys, no worries. I definitely think you should read #4, it's funny as shit, but yes he is clearly shitposting. Fallacy why are you shit posting.?

[Pozzai]

Ah ya bastard I was going to ask why they weren't doing anything to get the reads

Too slow.  Find your own things to push on.

Who says I haven't, and wont it counterwork the attempt if I explain what I do to get them?

I certainly didn't, I accepted both possibilities, and perhaps.  It all depends on the method through which you get them.

Leaning town on you for now, not gonna bother pushing any further on the matter.

Oh come on, you can do better than that. Why do they get a town lean?

Who says I haven't, and wont it counterwork the attempt if I explain what I do to get them?

I think you're the one saying you haven't, else you wouldn't be complaining that you're not getting reads on folk.

It probably won't counteract the attempt if you explain it, I don't think you need to resort to some weird ass double blind study to get a townread. Anyway, seeing as how you're implying you've laid these plans down somewhere, I imagine it'll allow us to get a read on you if you provide an example, even if it does counteract your efforts. Just as useful, no?

The theme falls within my ongoing spree of stunt openings, in which I try to get something of actual value by behaving abnormally.  This one sort of fizzled.

Yeah and I'm glad for it, hopefully people will stop doing that shit soon. [/tiltedgrumping]

Er... sometimes they're alright. The only problem is when the stunt overshadows everything else for the rest of the day.

 Me attempting to get reads on people, only works if they care enough to get out of the circular role discussions and actually do something... You can lead a horse to water...

[flabort]

Me attempting to get reads on people, only works if they care enough to get out of the circular role discussions and actually do something... You can lead a horse to water...

But it takes an ass to tell it that it's a horse.
So ask some questions that will lead to new different discussions. Duh. Get off your ass and find a way to break the circle, rather than just accusing everyone else of being useless.

[hector13]

Will everybody please stop pre-melting my shit? Please?

Fuck it that auto-correct is much funnier than what I meant.

[flabort]

EBWOP
You know, I can't tell who's being the lazier one. TheBiggerFish or Pozzai. If I had two votes they would both be used for pressure votes now.

[4maskwolf]

Me attempting to get reads on people, only works if they care enough to get out of the circular role discussions and actually do something... You can lead a horse to water...

Oh quit that.  The role discussions have barely even been a thing this game.

Ah ya bastard I was going to ask why they weren't doing anything to get the reads

Too slow.  Find your own things to push on.

Who says I haven't, and wont it counterwork the attempt if I explain what I do to get them?

I certainly didn't, I accepted both possibilities, and perhaps.  It all depends on the method through which you get them.

Leaning town on you for now, not gonna bother pushing any further on the matter.

Oh come on, you can do better than that. Why do they get a town lean?

Thy will be done.  Tone, mostly, it's the way I act when I'm town and literally couldn't give two shits about a question so I tend to view it favorably from an alignment standpoint.  Very mild town lean, but a town lean it is.

Me attempting to get reads on people, only works if they care enough to get out of the circular role discussions and actually do something... You can lead a horse to water...

But it takes an ass to tell it that it's a horse.
So ask some questions that will lead to new different discussions. Duh. Get off your ass and find a way to break the circle, rather than just accusing everyone else of being useless.

Will everybody please stop pre-melting my shit? Please?

Fuck it that auto-correct is much funnier than what I meant.

This is mafia you two, you're not allowed to be funny