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[10ebbor10]

Please don't throw two dice on a single revision. It wastes a die. It would be far better to spproach the problem from two sides (Ie, 1 making itshana cheaper, the others getting extra Ore).

Anyway : Proposals

Advanced Fuses : Current fuses are primitive and cost much time to replace. The advanced fuse uses a spring and a fragment of a broken lift crystal, both very cheap and abundant materials. When power flows through the fuse, the crystal fragment activates and pulls against the spring. The maximum flow can thus be chosen by adjusting the tension on the spring.

Bored Dragun : The Dragun is promising, but very expensive. In order to resolve this, we have revised it's construction methods. By boring rather than casting the gun, we can tighten manufacturing tolerances and lower the chance of explosive failures. This results in significant materials saving and lowered costs.

Carcass shot : The Dragun's incendiary projectiles lack range compared to it's leaden projectile. The Carcass shot is the answer. It consists of a hollow bronze shell within which a sulfur and gunpowder mixture is contained. Holes within the casing allowing the burning stuff to leak out and spray as the projectile flies to it's destination.

Layered Copper Armor : Our copper armor is currently a single massive block. The layered armor consists instead of many seperate thinner plates with gaps in between them to allow the transfer of heat to the air. Small openings in the front and back allow air to travel freely between plates to aid in this heat exchange.

Tactic : Covering Fire

Advances and retreats will be made by dividing soldiers and artillery in two groups. One who continues the advance, the other who opens fire to supress the enemy. Thus, we can ensure that any wannabe ambushes will always face a PLACE blast.

[Jilladilla]

Please don't throw two dice on a single revision. It wastes a die. It would be far better to spproach the problem from two sides (Ie, 1 making itshana cheaper, the others getting extra Ore).

Fully expected this, but ebbor, isn't trying to increase our resource gain a design?
But anyway, consider this everyone: The Itshana Selects are our one true trump card, the one thing that is propping us up. We aren't using it more because it's just too darn expensive! On top of that, if we somehow manage to drop the ore cost down to 50% of the crystal cost, (I find that unlikely outside a 6, to be honest) we can build that second Windrider right now. (20 of the Windrider's 'minimum' ore cost is in Itshana Selects, that's literally half of its cost) It's unlikely to happen, yes. But every bit of success here brings the Windrider one step closer to being a viable combatant against their Kunai in a fair fight.

And of course, we're going to continue using Itshana Selects for a long time to come, and demand is likely to only increase in the future. Let's ensure that this avenue of reducing the cost isn't cut off to us as well, like attempting to optimize the formula was.

But your fuses are a really neat idea, ebbor. I'm storing it in my notepad to ensure it doesn't get lost if it doesn't make the cut. (With proper credit issued to you, of course)

Itshana Cheapening:
 - 2 dice: (2) Milo, Jilladilla

Incendiary Skyskiff: (2) Milo, Jilladilla

Advanced Fuses: (1) Jilladilla

Bored Dragun:

Carcass Shot:

Layered Copper Armor:

Covering Fire:

[Tack]

Two things:
1. Didn't Draig say cheapening the Itshanas was a doomed propostition?
2. Ebbor is right, having two seperate revisions doubling dice is basically our only real way of being rewarded for ingenuity in this game and I'm not gonna squander that opportunity.

So, IF draig says it's kosher to try and the "blocked progress" on Itshana was just in response to the blanket "send the accountants after it" fix, I'll throw up another angle

[NUKE9.13]

It depends on what Draignean says about the feasibility of making the Select process cheaper from this other angle. If it is acceptable, I can see rolling it at advantage.
Because there isn't really any other way of doing it, that I can see. Increasing our Ore production with a revision is unlikely to have more than a very small impact, I think- we'd need a design to significantly increase output. And if there isn't another- considerably different- way of doing it, then we aren't going to get away with doing two similar revisions and pretending they aren't the same, Draignean made that pretty clear.
And the value of success is, as has been pointed out, worth considerably more than a potentially 'wasted' die.

[Jilladilla]

Hang on, I'll go try to find the fluff of the original failure to cheapen it. Here:

Itshana Materials Review
Efficacy: 1
A review of the material used in the Itshana process comes back with the worst possible news- there is no significant room for optimization of the current formula. The Itshana process, as currently envisioned, is nearly optimal, and the the current exotic materials required show little potential for substitution with cheaper concoctions. Aside from an increase in their knowledge of crystal chemistry, the experiments yield no valuable results.

This time we're attacking it from the 'Hard to process chemicals' side, to reduce the cost by streamlining that part. (Remember, cost is a function of both raw material costs, and difficulty of production.) And a bit of attempted recycling as well, it looks like.

[10ebbor10]

And the value of success is, as has been pointed out, worth considerably more than a potentially 'wasted' die

But having success and not wasting a die is worth even more, and there's no reason we can't do that. Advantage has no monopoly on success.

All we need is two differently written Itshana revisions.

 

Itshana Cheapening:
 - 2 dice: (2) Milo, Jilladilla
 - Do not use 2 dice : 10ebbor10

Incendiary Skyskiff: (2) Milo, Jilladilla

Advanced Fuses: (1) Jilladilla

Bored Dragun:

Carcass Shot:

Layered Copper Armor:

Covering Fire:

[Tack]

Ebbor, please don't throw out a gallon of proposals you aren't voting for.
Better yet, don't put out more proposals than there are dice.

[Jilladilla]

But having success and not wasting a die is worth even more, and there's no reason we can't do that. Advantage has no monopoly on success.

All we need is two differently written Itshana revisions.

Better to have it yet not need it, than need it but not have it.

Still, if you can find a different method to cheapen the Itshana Selects, then go for it, I'll have your back. Just remember that we've burned the bridge of optimizing the formula, and Draignean likely wouldn't buy us just using what is merely a differently worded revision.

(Andrea mentioned the possibility of introducing catalysts to the mix to extend the mileage of the chemicals on the discord, that could work, and would logically stack with streamlining the production of the chemicals. If someone gets a decent enough write-up posted I propose we roll for both revisions with one die each, to double-up, yet get something greater than the results of a single revision if both rolls go well.)

[10ebbor10]

The use of catalysts, the use of temperature, the use of seed crystals, changing the crystals shape. There a ton of options.

[NUKE9.13]

The use of catalysts, the use of temperature, the use of seed crystals, changing the crystals shape. There a ton of options.

How are those supposed to reduce the cost, though?

[milo christiansen]

Anyway. Rolling at advantage is the smart thing to do long-term. Rolling separate revisions may provide the same results faster and for 2 dice less, but at a much greater chance of failure... A better chance for good results are worth 2 dice in my book.

Particularly with our luck.

So I will never vote for two revisions, it is far too shortsighted and risky.

[NUKE9.13]

Alright, well. For the sake of argument, let's say we do this other method of making the Select process cheaper.

Thermovariable Itshana Process: The Itshana process, and the related Itshana Select process, produce high-quality crystals with far fewer internal fractures than those produced the regular way. Unfortunately, the Select process in particular is expensive in terms of materials needed. In an attempt to maintain the same quality standards whilst lowering costs, we have studied the way in which crystals form in different scenarios. We have discovered that optimal formation occurs when there is a distinct difference in temperature between the upper and lower ends of the vat.
The installation of heaters below the vats, and venting in cold air to the tops, should allow us to reduce the concentration of Select chemicals without compromising the quality substantially.

EDIT:

 

Itshana Select is Too Expensive, What Do?
Itshana Cheapening:
 - 2 dice: (2) Milo, Jilladilla
 - 1 die: (2) 10ebbor10, NUKE9.13
Thermovariable Itshana Process:
 - 1 die: (1) NUKE9.13

Other Revisions:
Incendiary Skyskiff: (3) Milo, Jilladilla, NUKE9.13
Advanced Fuses: (1) Jilladilla
Bored Dragun:
Carcass Shot:
Layered Copper Armor:
Covering Fire:

[Tack]

Itshana Select is Too Expensive, What Do?
Itshana Cheapening:
 - 2 dice: (2) Milo, Jilladilla
 - 1 die: (3) 10ebbor10, NUKE9.13, Tack
Thermovariable Itshana Process:
 - 1 die: (2) NUKE9.13, Tack

Other Revisions:
Incendiary Skyskiff: (4) Milo, Jilladilla, NUKE9.13, Tack
Advanced Fuses: (1) Jilladilla
Bored Dragun: (1) Tack
Carcass Shot:
Layered Copper Armor:
Covering Fire:
Only One Revision:

[Madman198237]

I am actually going to suggest holding off. Keep two dice, and start an Itshana Cheapening design. Better chances of success, even if our rolls suck like crazy.

That or just do a crystal-knowledge improve design, force effectiveness to 6, and then use the results of said design to make the Itshanas more powerful. And then make our regular crystals more powerful. Effectively, instead of making the cost match the effect, we make the effect match the cost.

This way, we do not lock ourselves out of Itshana progress, and maybe even gain some side benefits along the way.

Itshana Select is Too Expensive, What Do?
Itshana Cheapening:
 - 2 dice: (2) Milo, Jilladilla
 - 1 die: (3) 10ebbor10, NUKE9.13, Tack
Thermovariable Itshana Process:
 - 1 die: (2) NUKE9.13, Tack

Other Revisions:
Incendiary Skyskiff: (5) Milo, Jilladilla, NUKE9.13, Tack, Madman
Advanced Fuses: (1) Jilladilla
Bored Dragun: (1) Tack
Carcass Shot:
Layered Copper Armor:
Covering Fire:
Only One Revision: (1) Madman

[Draignean]

Alright, I'll probably update tomorrow. As it stands, however, you're currently voting to do four revisions: Itshana Cheapening, Thermovariable Itshana, Incenediary Skyskiff, and one of the Advanced Fuses/Boring Dragun/Nothing.

If that's not what you want to do, elucidate within the next eight hours.