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[scourge728]

Can someone turn them back on anyway, just so we know what happens?

[therahedwig]

Commented out code is removed during compilation (when code is turned into an executable program), so noone but Toady actually has access to anything Toady has commented out in the code

If I were you I'd fire up an old version of DF (the main page still has a few) and see if you can find one of these forts.

[Nopenope]

Demonic Fortresses is what these underground structures, that used to be buried deep underground, are called. Not really sites at all. Toady has commented on them being commented out (in the code), and IIRC last time he did not really remember the reason for doing so. It is possible they are hiding some horrible bug. Either way fixing them is seemingly not a priority.

They'll be gone come the map rewrite and mythgen, so not much point in turning them on and going through the pain of figuring out the bugs now.

Yeah, I've never been that much a fan of the "let's not bother fixing things and just scrap it all since it's all gonna be rewritten in 10 years" mindset, for one.

[Shonai_Dweller]

Demonic Fortresses is what these underground structures, that used to be buried deep underground, are called. Not really sites at all. Toady has commented on them being commented out (in the code), and IIRC last time he did not really remember the reason for doing so. It is possible they are hiding some horrible bug. Either way fixing them is seemingly not a priority.

They'll be gone come the map rewrite and mythgen, so not much point in turning them on and going through the pain of figuring out the bugs now.

Yeah, I've never been that much a fan of the "let's not bother fixing things and just scrap it all since it's all gonna be rewritten in 10 years" mindset, for one.

They aren't in the game. They are broken things that do not exist in the game. Why waste time putting them back into the game and trying to fix everything they break? Makes absolutely no sense at all.

If they were a vital thing missing from the game that made DF what it is (like giant desert scorpions) then sure, put them back in, take the time to fix them rather than waiting until Mythgen. But these are not that. Deamon dwarf fortresses and evil spreading towers are a fine replacement.

[Nopenope]

Demonic fortresses worked fine in .34.11 and got removed in .40.01 for no apparent reason, by Toady's own admission. Presumably some site rewrite broke them and he didn't bother fixing it, on account of a future map rewrite that'd occur by 2024 or something. It's not like they were broken before. I mean they were pretty cool and distinct features of the game that added an interesting gameplay element to fortress mode, it's really a shame they don't exist anymore.

Same goes for goblin ambushes by the way. They were such a fundamental part of the game and are now all buggy. Reassuring players that it'll get fixed sometime when we all know the development time scale is not a solution. Not if you want to retain your players in the context of a Steam release, anyway.

[Shonai_Dweller]

Demonic fortresses worked fine in .34.11 and got removed in .40.01 for no apparent reason, by Toady's own admission. Presumably some site rewrite broke them and he didn't bother fixing it, on account of a future map rewrite that'd occur by 2024 or something. It's not like they were broken before. I mean they were pretty cool and distinct features of the game that added an interesting gameplay element to fortress mode, it's really a shame they don't exist anymore.

Same goes for goblin ambushes by the way. They were such a fundamental part of the game and are now all buggy. Reassuring players that it'll get fixed sometime when we all know the development time scale is not a solution. Not if you want to retain your players in the context of a Steam release, anyway.

Goblin ambushes, yes. Hopefully coming up in Improved Sieges right after Steam. The Ambusher tag ambushes are beautiful when they actually throw up a plausible ambush.

Demonic fortresses are in the next version of the game and don't rely on players discovering them in the inexplicable, "player somehow digs further than any dwarf in the past thousand years" mechanism that most games go for. DF is trying to move away from that and the less it tries to act like a generic site management sim, the better it's chances on Steam (so long as it's less opaque about what it's doing of course).

[Atomic Chicken]

They aren't in the game. They are broken things that do not exist in the game. Why waste time putting them back into the game and trying to fix everything they break? Makes absolutely no sense at all.

Don't mind me, just dropping by to dump some fresh hazardous wizardry in here:

Code: (create-demonic-fortress.lua) [Select]

-- Create a demonic fortress somewhere within the selected embark location
-- author: Atomic Chicken

function getDeepSurfaceMat()
-- returns the index of an inorganic material with the "DEEP_SURFACE" flag
  local deepSurfaceMaterials = {}
  local inorganics = df.global.world.raws.inorganics
  for i,inorganic in ipairs(inorganics) do
    if inorganic.flags.DEEP_SURFACE then
      table.insert(deepSurfaceMaterials, i)
    end
  end
  return 0, deepSurfaceMaterials[math.random(1, #deepSurfaceMaterials)]
end

function getRandomCavernLayerDepth(pos)
-- returns a random cavern layer depth which is valid at the specified world tile pos
  local layers = {}
  for i,region in ipairs(df.global.world.world_data.underground_regions) do
    if region.type == df.world_underground_region.T_type['Cavern'] then
      for k = 0,#region.region_coords.x-1,1 do
        if region.region_coords.x[k] == pos.x and region.region_coords.y[k] == pos.y then
          table.insert(layers, region.layer_depth)
        end
      end
    end
  end
  if #layers == 0 then
    qerror("No cavern layer is present!")
  else
    return layers[math.random(1, #layers)]
  end
end

function isValidUnitRace(race)
-- returns true if the creature exists and is not vermin
  if race.flags.DOES_NOT_EXIST then
    return false
  end
  local verminFlags = {"VERMIN_EATER","VERMIN_GROUNDER","VERMIN_ROTTER","VERMIN_SOIL","VERMIN_SOIL_COLONY","VERMIN_FISH"}
  for _,v in ipairs(verminFlags) do
    if race.flags[v] then
      return false
    end
  end
  return true
end

function isRestrictedRace(race)
  local restrictedFlags = {"CASTE_DEMON","CASTE_UNIQUE_DEMON","CASTE_TITAN","CASTE_MEGABEAST","CASTE_SEMIMEGABEAST","CASTE_FEATURE_BEAST","CASTE_NOT_LIVING","CASTE_NIGHT_CREATURE_ANY","EQUIPMENT_WAGON"}
  for _,v in ipairs(restrictedFlags) do
    if race.flags[v] then
      return true
    end
  end
  return false
end

function createAnimalPopulation(raceID, count)
  local pop = df.world_population:new()
  pop.type = 0
  pop.race = raceID
  pop.count_min = count
  pop.count_max = count
  return pop
end

function populateWithDemons(feature, count)
  local demonIDs = {}
  for i, race in ipairs(df.global.world.raws.creatures.all) do
    if race.flags.CASTE_DEMON and isValidUnitRace(race) then
      table.insert(demonIDs, i)
    end
  end

  if #demonIDs > 0 then
    for n = 1, count do
      local i = math.random(1,#demonIDs)
      local demonID = demonIDs[i]
      feature.population:insert('#', createAnimalPopulation(demonID,math.random(5,30))) -- pop size range was chosen arbitrarily
      table.remove(demonIDs, i)
      if #demonIDs == 0 then
        break
      end
    end
  end
end

function populateWithRandoms(feature, count)
  local creatureIDs = {}
  for i, race in ipairs(df.global.world.raws.creatures.all) do
    if isValidUnitRace(race) and not isRestrictedRace(race) then
      table.insert(creatureIDs, i)
    end
  end

  if #creatureIDs > 0 then
    for n = 1,count do
      local i = math.random(1,#creatureIDs)
      local creatureID = creatureIDs[i]
      feature.population:insert('#', createAnimalPopulation(creatureID,math.random(5,30))) -- pop size range was also chosen arbitrarily
      table.remove(creatureIDs, i)
      if #creatureIDs == 0 then
        break
      end
    end
  end
end

function createDemonicFortressFeature(pos)
  local fort = df.feature_init_deep_surface_portalst:new()
  fort.start_x = -1
  fort.start_y = -1
  fort.end_x = -1
  fort.end_y = -1
  fort.start_depth = getRandomCavernLayerDepth(pos)
  fort.end_depth = 4 -- always the underworld layer depth, even if cavern layers are missing
  local sladeMatType, sladeMatIndex = getDeepSurfaceMat()
  if sladeMatIndex then
    fort.mat_type = sladeMatType
    fort.mat_index = sladeMatIndex
  end
  fort.feature = {new = true}
  populateWithDemons(fort.feature, 7)
  populateWithRandoms(fort.feature, 5)
  return fort
end

local screen = dfhack.gui.getCurViewscreen()
if screen._type ~= df.viewscreen_choose_start_sitest then
  qerror('This script can only be used in fortress mode when selecting the embark location!')
end
local pos = screen.location.region_pos

local features = df.global.world.world_data.feature_map[math.floor(pos.x/16)]:_displace(math.floor(pos.y/16)).features
local feature_inits = features.feature_init[pos.x%16][pos.y%16]

local feature_init = createDemonicFortressFeature(pos)
feature_inits:insert('#', feature_init)

local feature = df.world_region_feature:new()
feature.feature_idx = #feature_inits-1
feature.layer = -1
feature.region_tile_idx = -1
feature.min_z = -30000
feature.max_z = -30000

local min_map = screen.location.embark_pos_min
local max_map = screen.location.embark_pos_max
local x = math.random(min_map.x, max_map.x) -- choose a random region tile within the embark site selection box
local y = math.random(min_map.y, max_map.y)
local regionFeatures = df.global.world.world_data.region_details[0].features[x][y] -- of the currently selected world tile
regionFeatures:insert('#', feature)

Save as a .lua file in the DFHack\scripts folder, and run after selecting the embark location at the start of fortress mode; the feature will be placed at a random spot within the site selection box (so you may enlarge the latter to full size prior to running the script if you want to introduce an element of uncertainty). This script is experimental; be sure to back up the save first.

[Nopenope]

Goblin ambushes, yes. Hopefully coming up in Improved Sieges right after Steam. The Ambusher tag ambushes are beautiful when they actually throw up a plausible ambush.

Demonic fortresses are in the next version of the game and don't rely on players discovering them in the inexplicable, "player somehow digs further than any dwarf in the past thousand years" mechanism that most games go for. DF is trying to move away from that and the less it tries to act like a generic site management sim, the better it's chances on Steam (so long as it's less opaque about what it's doing of course).

I'm aware of all these justifications, and I don't really care to be frank. From an average player's point of view trying to enjoy the game as it currently is: a feature was in the game and worked fine, then it got broken, then it got removed, but don't worry, it'll be reintroduced in a better way two years from now (at least). This may work out fine when your intended audience is a dwindling community of unconditional fans, but I have a hard time imagining that a Steam customer being freshly introduced would interpret it as anything other than a net loss in features. They are way less patient than we are, they aren't aware of and don't care about Toady's vision, they just want a game that 1) has few or no gamebreaking bugs, 2) gets regular updates and 3) doesn't lose features as opposed to gaining them upon updating. All of which runs fundamentally contrary to the way the game is being developed right now and this will have to change if the audience is to be expanded beyond the bay12forum regulars.

[Shonai_Dweller]

Goblin ambushes, yes. Hopefully coming up in Improved Sieges right after Steam. The Ambusher tag ambushes are beautiful when they actually throw up a plausible ambush.

Demonic fortresses are in the next version of the game and don't rely on players discovering them in the inexplicable, "player somehow digs further than any dwarf in the past thousand years" mechanism that most games go for. DF is trying to move away from that and the less it tries to act like a generic site management sim, the better it's chances on Steam (so long as it's less opaque about what it's doing of course).

I'm aware of all these justifications, and I don't really care to be frank. From an average player's point of view trying to enjoy the game as it currently is: a feature was in the game and worked fine, then it got broken, then it got removed, but don't worry, it'll be reintroduced in a better way two years from now (at least). This may work out fine when your intended audience is a dwindling community of unconditional fans, but I have a hard time imagining that a Steam customer being freshly introduced would interpret it as anything other than a net loss in features. They are way less patient than we are, they aren't aware of and don't care about Toady's vision, they just want a game that 1) has few or no gamebreaking bugs, 2) gets regular updates and 3) doesn't lose features as opposed to gaining them upon updating. All of which runs fundamentally contrary to the way the game is being developed right now and this will have to change if the audience is to be expanded beyond the bay12forum regulars.

You know the last time features went "missing" was in 2012 right? When the game was rewritten to be more of a living world  simulator. And since then they haven't, right? And, contrary to your rant, features have continuously increased. And since it's actually this simulator that is to be sold on Steam, those poor delicate Steam noobies who bought Dwarf Fortress inexplicably without knowing what it is or reading the description are in fact not going to be experiencing traumatic feature loss. And it's only something people who've been playing for the past decade or so (that dwindling fanbase of old people) care about.

Dwarf Fortress won't ever be "a game" unless Kitfox go out of their way to break it completely and try to make a generic site management sim out of it. It's not that, it's something unique. And if a million noobies don't want that, well great. Who really cares. It's an indie game, not the latest AAA blockbuster. Dumbing down the game, stopping development and abandoning the vision will kill Dwarf Fortress far more quickly than any feature replacement.

[scourge728]

I haven't been playing for a decade, and yet I still find them interesting, I mostly want them modded in as a science experiment though...

[PlumpHelmetMan]

I've only been playing for 3 years so I don't really care one way or another (don't think I even found out they were ever a thing in the first place until just a few months ago), though I look forward to seeing what the new demon fortresses in the next release will be like.

[Loud Whispers]

Besides the things already mentioned (GDS are sorely missed), one of the things I miss the most was a pretty hilarious but game-breaking bug where were-creature syndromes were passed onto their severed limbs, even after reanimation. This caused the severed limbs to reanimate, and upon full moon, become a fully healed corpse. This continued until the were-creature horde had multiplied to take over the world

All in all

10/10 bug

[gchristopher]

Goblin ambushes, yes. Hopefully coming up in Improved Sieges right after Steam. The Ambusher tag ambushes are beautiful when they actually throw up a plausible ambush.

... From an average player's point of view trying to enjoy the game as it currently is: a feature was in the game and worked fine, then it got broken, then it got removed, but don't worry, it'll be reintroduced in a better way two years from now (at least). ....  I have a hard time imagining that a Steam customer being freshly introduced would interpret it as anything other than a net loss in features.

You know the last time features went "missing" was in 2012 right? When the game was rewritten to be more of a living world  simulator. And since then they haven't, right?

The ambush event is a pretty clear feature loss. I think we can all acknowledge the current "living" world frequently doesn't do as good a job of delivering a progression of invaders as the old system, and in DF-development time, 2012 isn't that long ago. Every time I pick up the game, I'm reminded of how I see less invader activity than the pre-world-activation version.

But, as you point out, DF is a simulator and gameplay is emergent from that. (With the entire game in all its craziness as the evidence that someday, more cool things will happen.)

Dwarf Fortress won't ever be "a game" unless Kitfox go out of their way to break it completely and try to make a generic site management sim out of it. It's not that, it's something unique. .... Dumbing down the game, stopping development and abandoning the vision will kill Dwarf Fortress ...

I think it can be a good game and not hurt the vision. It won't dumb down the game for Toady to pay some more attention to gameplay for gameplay's sake once or twice a decade.

In a similar vein, DF isn't THAT hard or cerebral a game. Most of the hurdle to new players is the user interface. I don't think it's a reasonable ask right now, but someday it will be worth it to decouple the simulator and the SDL graphics hooks and make a full UI redesign doable. Probably the main reason it hasn't been worth it so far is the stress it would cause Toady to have to work with a team. He's cited the risk of a third-party UI creating a support load as a reason he hasn't done it in the past. It's hard to tell how far the Kitfox partnership will go in that vein, but anything is a start.

Code: (create-demonic-fortress.lua) [Select]

-- Create a demonic fortress somewhere within the selected embark location
-- author: Atomic Chicken
...


I was skimming a bit and after misreading the header comment, started reading fast thinking "It creates an ATOMIC CHICKEN!?! How???"

Then I went back up and realized it doesn't actually add Atomic Chickens to the game.

[Untrustedlife]

Goblin ambushes, yes. Hopefully coming up in Improved Sieges right after Steam. The Ambusher tag ambushes are beautiful when they actually throw up a plausible ambush.

... From an average player's point of view trying to enjoy the game as it currently is: a feature was in the game and worked fine, then it got broken, then it got removed, but don't worry, it'll be reintroduced in a better way two years from now (at least). ....  I have a hard time imagining that a Steam customer being freshly introduced would interpret it as anything other than a net loss in features.

You know the last time features went "missing" was in 2012 right? When the game was rewritten to be more of a living world  simulator. And since then they haven't, right?

The ambush event is a pretty clear feature loss. I think we can all acknowledge the current "living" world frequently doesn't do as good a job of delivering a progression of invaders as the old system, and in DF-development time, 2012 isn't that long ago. Every time I pick up the game, I'm reminded of how I see less invader activity than the pre-world-activation version.

But, as you point out, DF is a simulator and gameplay is emergent from that. (With the entire game in all its craziness as the evidence that someday, more cool things will happen.)

Dwarf Fortress won't ever be "a game" unless Kitfox go out of their way to break it completely and try to make a generic site management sim out of it. It's not that, it's something unique. .... Dumbing down the game, stopping development and abandoning the vision will kill Dwarf Fortress ...

I think it can be a good game and not hurt the vision. It won't dumb down the game for Toady to pay some more attention to gameplay for gameplay's sake once or twice a decade.

In a similar vein, DF isn't THAT hard or cerebral a game. Most of the hurdle to new players is the user interface. I don't think it's a reasonable ask right now, but someday it will be worth it to decouple the simulator and the SDL graphics hooks and make a full UI redesign doable. Probably the main reason it hasn't been worth it so far is the stress it would cause Toady to have to work with a team. He's cited the risk of a third-party UI creating a support load as a reason he hasn't done it in the past. It's hard to tell how far the Kitfox partnership will go in that vein, but anything is a start.

Code: (create-demonic-fortress.lua) [Select]

-- Create a demonic fortress somewhere within the selected embark location
-- author: Atomic Chicken
...


I was skimming a bit and after misreading the header comment, started reading fast thinking "It creates an ATOMIC CHICKEN!?! How???"

Then I went back up and realized it doesn't actually add Atomic Chickens to the game.

I much prefer the current world-activated version of dwarf fortress over version 34. Also what do you mean decouple teh simulator, that would be completely pointless he can make a good ui without messing up his simulation lol. Also the community is in no way dwindling. Hes making more money through donations then hes ever made and the reddit/here is actually really active.

[Untrustedlife]

Demonic fortresses worked fine in .34.11 and got removed in .40.01 for no apparent reason, by Toady's own admission. Presumably some site rewrite broke them and he didn't bother fixing it, on account of a future map rewrite that'd occur by 2024 or something. It's not like they were broken before. I mean they were pretty cool and distinct features of the game that added an interesting gameplay element to fortress mode, it's really a shame they don't exist anymore.

Same goes for goblin ambushes by the way. They were such a fundamental part of the game and are now all buggy. Reassuring players that it'll get fixed sometime when we all know the development time scale is not a solution. Not if you want to retain your players in the context of a Steam release, anyway.

Goblin ambushes, yes. Hopefully coming up in Improved Sieges right after Steam. The Ambusher tag ambushes are beautiful when they actually throw up a plausible ambush.

Demonic fortresses are in the next version of the game and don't rely on players discovering them in the inexplicable, "player somehow digs further than any dwarf in the past thousand years" mechanism that most games go for. DF is trying to move away from that and the less it tries to act like a generic site management sim, the better it's chances on Steam (so long as it's less opaque about what it's doing of course).

This approach is why df is superior to rimworld for example. Rimworld is just random df has a simulation that underpins everything and so everything has a reason it happens. I think its so much better.

Also, the new dice roll syndromes and various monsters the demons can make in the upcoming version will be awesome.