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[Naturegirl1999]

Sorry for asking an out person a question, the lol afterwards made me question the sincerity. Thanks for clarifying. No more questions to dolores as he is out. Now for my actual post

Tricmagic

To note, I kinda wonder how superdorf got that info.

Note my Role is completely useless this game. Feel free to target me all you like.

Yay

TricMagic: How has your scum-play differentiated from your town-play in past games?

Typically, it hasn't. Though last game I ended up being busier in RL than not, so I was mostly silent.

Naturegirl: Hit me with a question.

You haven’t made any posts since this one. Were you waiting for a question? Why are you not very active today? If you could figure out someone’s role, who would you target and why? Why did you mention the uselessness of a role? Why do you want to be targeted?

[dolores]

My case against Superdorf is indeed weak, though I still do want the promised followup response to it.

The present case on Superdorf is weak, but the theoretical case on Superdorf should he fail to produce good content after having examples of his own posts presented to him as a guideline is rock solid.
IcyTea31: in your opinion, based off of what I've revealed to far, do you believe the scum would be able to nightkill me?
PPE:
Naturegirl1999: planning on asking any questions to active players.
Also, you can ask me questions, since in theory they'll be answered by the person who replaces me if there is one. What you can't do is ask me questions, because while that person is here I won't be, though I still have a few hours.

[notquitethere]

D1 Votes
Superdorf - Icytea31 [1]
Persus13
Dolores
TricMagic - Dolores, Naturegirl1999 [2]
FallacyofUrist - Deus Asmoth [1]
Deus Asmoth
Naturegirl1999
Shadowclaw777
Icytea31 - Persus13, FallacyofUrist [2]

Hammer: 5 votes. Day ends: 21st December 4.30pm GMT (about 23 hours time).

Dolores has requested replacement. Dolores may continue to post if they want, and indeed may withdraw their replacement request if so desired.

Let me know if I've made any mistakes in vote count.

[FallacyofUrist]

FallacyofUrist:
The issue with this line of thinking is, what's the Mafia going to do about it? The info is out there, but its not like killing Superdorf will take that away, and roles don't mean anything towards alignment. The only solid bit of info that this gives towards alignment is there might be an SK because they're guaranteed a kill ability of some sort and there's three kill abilities. But that info helps the scumteam as much as it does everyone else. If Superdorf was a day cop than it would be more risky, because he'd have more concrete information to give. Do you actually think there's any evidence of Superdorf being Mafia, or are you just raising the possibility?

I believe there is a possibility Superdorf is in fact a mafia player. At the moment I consider it a possibility and not yet a certainty. I'm case-building.

I believe you may be underestimating the usefulness of a census power, particularly a double-list census power. With enough census information out there, combined with a massclaim... I can't see that going very well for the mafia. If Superdorf is town then in the longer run he is an immense threat to the mafia, especially once his ability is proven by someone dying matching his information.

The problem of course being that if you are town and you survive till the next day, you can census again and reveal even more information to town. With every death that occurs the likelihood of your role being confirmed or at least made more likely to be true increases as the death information may match your census information. Why would the mafia care if your death reveals the truth of your information when you're going to be releasing even more information over time? If you are a town player and being truthful you've made yourself an attractive target towards mafia, simply for the sake of cutting off your flow of information.

This is dumb. The information isn't, like, alignment inspects that the scum already know. Scum get just as much out of the expanded list as we do.
I've got a 1000x more important role. I can tell you that straight up. If scum shoot at Superdorf, they can't shoot at me. (Yes, scum, that's WIFOM. But only for you, so go get drunk in scumchat and leave it out of the thread if you don't want to be called out for it.) This is generalizable.

If you are not killed by Day 2, my suspicion would be either that you are mafia, you correctly planned for a town player to protect you, or the scum are leaving you alive as a risky gambit.

There's no risk to this gambit. What's the worst that's going to happen, scum kill someone that's close to a vanilla townie? That's the best case scenario for N1. Why does this worry you?

Let me present a hypothetical scenario. The census is much more useful than you may think. Particularly, this double-list census power that provides two lists.

It is entirely possible that by Day 2 Superdorf will have assembled a complete list of every power in the game. From there, a massclaim can be forced, and anyone who doesn't 'add up' can be targeted. This is, I suspect, a terrifying possibility to the scum.

1) Is casting doubt about one's townishness an anti-town move? If anything, it encourages others to observe me more carefully. Furthermore, why would I want to be read "truely", role and all? At this point of the game, only scum would benefit from knowing my role, since they could be sure that their read on that was correct.

2)As town, I don't see a problem with other townies subconsciously believing I'm town. In being open about not reading my PM, I also give others the chance to take it into account later. Surely, it'd be worse if I didn't tell you I wasn't reading it?

If I'm town, there's likely nothing in my PM that will help prove it, which is what town players care about. Scum players care about my specific role, which might shine through my posts unintentionally. D1 towniness comes from scumhunting and thread behaviour, not from mechanical information. There's also likely nothing in my PM that will help me scumhunt.

If I'm scum, I want to be deceptive anyway and giving a "true read" would be counterproductive. On the other hand, not coordinating with scumbuddies may lead to accidental buses etc., but that would be a perfect cover for the remaining scum, no?

How would you prefer I used the information in my PM? What is there to gain from it for me, and for the town as a whole?

To put it simply. Not reading your role PM is a scum move because it means anyone who reads you cannot get a true read on you. It makes any attempt to analyze your behavior useless until you actually read your role PM. Town benefit more from being able to read someone accurately, as the lynch can then be targeted on any detected scum. Therefore, not reading your role PM only hurts the town.

Now, lying and claiming you didn't read your role PM seems a bit more likely. You're intelligent enough to see the foolishness of not reading your role PM, but lying about not reading it? As a scum player that would throw any read on you into doubt for Day 1. It encourages people to pay less attention to you, or at the very least any read that may be formed.

I would prefer you actually read your role PM so people can read you accurately. That provides the most benefit for the town. And if you're not a town player, such a shame it is for you.

FOU

If you are not killed by Day 2, my suspicion would be either that you are mafia, you correctly planned for a town player to protect you, or the scum are leaving you alive as a risky gambit.

You've listed every possible reason for why Superdorf might survive the night here. Which would you think would be the most likely?

It'd be worth digging a bit deeper into all of those, I think.

I'm leaning towards the 'Superdorf is mafia' theory.
-This would allow scum to engineer the earlier massclaim strategy I mentioned, to their benefit. Superdorf can be a mafia census player. Reveal partly true and partly false census information. Use the true stuff to prove his role. Hide the scum and sow confusion using the false information. It's the perfect tool for mass manipulation.
-And of course Superdorf wouldn't be worried about being nightkilled by his scum team.
-As has been mentioned, it's entirely possible Superdorf is being coached by his scum partner or mimicking others in an attempt to look town.

But in the interest of fairness let's look at the other options presented here.

The 'Superdorf was protected' theory.
-A town player, knowing how useful Superdorf's census ability is at the massclaim stage, choses to protect Superdorf with some flavor of protection ability. Something like 'everyone who targets Superdorf is randomized' or 'protect Superdorf from kills'. So on and so forth. This is possible and should not be ignored, but what are the odds such an ability exists?

The 'scum are leaving Superdorf alive as a risky gambit' theory.
-They would have to have some hope that whatever role abilities they have up their sleeves can work around Superdorf's census. Which is possible, but as mentioned, risky.

I once vindicated you as obvtown by noting that you clearly weren't being coached, but this time it looks like someone is helping you. In this post and this post, you express uncertainty about your play, but then in the post quoted above, you suddenly show chutzpah. What changed?

I don't think 'coached' is the right term here. It looks more like Superdorf is mimicking town arguments in an attempt to look town.
~~~
In truth, Superdorf looks more mafia-like than IcyTea does.

Why am I not voting him at present?

Because if he is town then keeping him alive will be very beneficial. I want to be absolutely certain that he's mafia before any vote.

IcyTea meanwhile hasn't shown much value... nor has he scum-hunted to any significant degree, at present.

[IcyTea31]

in your opinion, based off of what I've revealed to far, do you believe the scum would be able to nightkill me?

There are too many moving parts in this setup for this question to be anything but pointless speculation. You're simultaneously provoking and intimidating scum to and from nightkilling you, so it's anyone's guess which aspect was stronger. I doubt you'll be targeted N1 and will likely be the target of an alternate kill method later. Or maybe some stupid combination of abilities ends up killing everyone by the start of D2. But as noted, trying to made a prediction is pointless for as long as town has the information disadvantage.

From there, a massclaim can be forced, and anyone who doesn't 'add up' can be targeted.

It makes any attempt to analyze your behavior useless until you actually read your role PM.

It encourages people to pay less attention to you, or at the very least any read that may be formed.

I would prefer you actually read your role PM so people can read you accurately.

Roles aren't alignment-indicative. What's to stop scum from being truthful in a massclaim?

Considering the whole method of behavioural analysis is based on the theory that players play differently as town and scum, am I not only providing you a clear background to contrast your later reads with? This is me playing town. Look for changes later, and you can tell if I, personally, am playing town or anti-town, rather than just whether Generic Player #9 is playing town or anti-town. I'm playing a long game that will give specific later instead of general now.

Evidence points to the contrary; I've been right in the center of attention.

And what will I do then? Say that I'm town, look at me I'm so town?

As has been mentioned, it's entirely possible Superdorf is being coached by his scum partner or mimicking others in an attempt to look town.

I don't think 'coached' is the right term here. It looks more like Superdorf is mimicking town arguments in an attempt to look town.

IcyTea meanwhile hasn't shown much value... nor has he scum-hunted to any significant degree, at present.

This here is interesting. I'm the one who pointed that out, yet you also believe that I'm scum? Bussing aside, do I and Superdorf make a plausible buddy-pair?

Truth be told, my original gut feeling was dolores coaching Superdorf, which is why I asked a few sneaky questions to probe that without revealing too much, such as this one:

Could you follow up on this? I don't like a conclusion my gut is pointing at, and this might help ascertain truth.

That gut feeling probably influenced me to assume Superdorf wouldn't be doing this alone, even after I cleared dolores.

A weird thing to say after using some of my material as core assumptions in your logic.

[dolores]

Let me present a hypothetical scenario. The census is much more useful than you may think. Particularly, this double-list census power that provides two lists.

It is entirely possible that by Day 2 Superdorf will have assembled a complete list of every power in the game. From there, a massclaim can be forced, and anyone who doesn't 'add up' can be targeted. This is, I suspect, a terrifying possibility to the scum.

Who cares? Just claim.
This doesn't make any difference.
Superdorf doesn't even know what people's powers are, just the class of action they fall into.

-superdorf stuff-

Yeah I know I cut out stuff I've already addressed that you're retreading with ICT. It doesn't hold any water. There's very little cost to not reading your role, and there's a distinct benefit if you are scum, which you'd have no way of knowing. You'd do things like ICT has above in his last two posts, regardless of alignment, which is only good for you.
Your case on superdorf is fucking comical.

The 'scum are leaving Superdorf alive as a risky gambit' theory.
-They would have to have some hope that whatever role abilities they have up their sleeves can work around Superdorf's census. Which is possible, but as mentioned, risky.

There's no risk to this. None. It exists in only your mind. Maybe scum!FallacyofUrist would be afraid of it, but in that case, you're only telling us that you're the scum here. If you believe the shit you're saying, you're telling us two things: scum are worried about Superdorf and that you are worried about Superdorf. Not the picture I'd paint if I was you, but to each their own.
You're basically claiming that, like, Superdorf is going to waste all our time with WIFOM on D2. But that's what you're doing now. Congrats. You've taken the burden onto yourself.

I don't think 'coached' is the right term here. It looks more like Superdorf is mimicking town arguments in an attempt to look town.

There's an alternative take on this where Superdorf is new!town trying to copy what he thinks is a good!town style, because he thinks it's the right thing to do.
It'll be real easy to see now, because he has no latitude to address any of this shit (it's all WIFOM or desperate self defence shit, which is antitown at best) and he'll not have any content from me as reference. If he keeps trying to act in a protown manner and doesn't slip further into pointless defensive crap, he's town. He's promised town activity, so if he doesn't provide it, you can say he's not.

IcyTea meanwhile hasn't shown much value... nor has he scum-hunted to any significant degree, at present.

Are you fucking kidding me
IcyTea has done as much work as dolores in terms of putting Superdorf into the spot he's in now, which will quickly determine a key player's alignment.
I realize that I'm the one saying this, but his play to produce the townread on me was the most brilliant shit I've ever fucking seen.
IcyTea quickly dismantled Persus13's meta bullshit, and did so in a way that prevented it from impacting the game.
etc. etc.
He's done nothing but show value. Now, this doesn't mean that he's town. scum!IcyTea who hasn't read his PM would do the exact same thing. But there's no denying that IcyTea has done more work than 8 other players this D1.
PPE: I'll dump this now then read ICT's post

[IcyTea31]

That gut feeling probably influenced me to assume Superdorf wouldn't be doing this alone, even after I cleared dolores.

Hold up, that's not right. Back then, my thought process was that dolores might be coaching Superdorf, which is why he would be suddenly prompted to make a far less uncertain post than before. My townread on dolores wasn't a factor, since it didn't exist yet. Thinking about your past posts is difficult when you have information you obtained later, isn't it?

[dolores]

Yeah, I buy that. This is town!ICT, at least for D1.
Like he's said, you can literally compare his later behavior to how he's played here. It's a perfect, 100% up to date basis for a metaread. If you can't find an argument based on that that works, he's not scum or you're bad at mafia (ICT isn't, so that's not really a criticism for the newer players).
Here's my list of players in order of preference to kill at this point in time. I'll check again in an hour and write a quick post then, otherwise I'm going to be reduced to phoneposting less than once a day at the witching hour while probably drunk. Probably, I'll use my night powers and just vote with whoever I think is the most likely to be town until I'm replaced. I should be able to update my vote just before this day ends. Anyway, here's the list:
FallacyofUrist
I don't have any more evidence that TricMagic is mafia than I do that he's been hit by a bus. If I was a vig, I'd shoot him. I'd like to ask any town arsonists able to to prime him N1. If he confirms his alignment, you can decide then, and burn him N2 if he's still being useless. Whatever, you shouldn't need me to explain (more than I have previously, anyway) why his current volume of nonwork is unacceptable. The one post he has made is absent any contribution and actually scummy in itself, though.
Naturegirl1999: too active for how little work they've done. Persistently defensive, not actually hunting any scum (or hunting anything, for that matter).
Persus13: as far as I'm concerned, everything they've said outside of discussing ICT and myself is solid play, and everything they've said about/to ICT and myself is bullshit. ICT is their main case though, which means that they're maybe just a solid player who's scum and pushing a fallacious case. Weak scum read
Deus Asmoth: pretty much the same as Persus13, except they've put infintely less emphasis on the part of Persus13's play I have a problem with, and have had their vote on the player I want to lynch since before they made the post that made me really want to lynch them. Neutral read, middle of the list.
ColdsteeltheShadowclaw777: pretty stock standard play, very 'weak' game in terms of B12 mafia but they've got an excellent excuse for it. No slips that I can think offhand. Neutral read.
Superdorf: either an easy town read or going to show otherwise by the end of D1. Promised activity. If they supply it, they're probably town.
IcyTea31: hasn't read his rolepm. A legend and a hero. Has played 100% town up to this point. Compare their future play to what they've presented up till now to determine if they're scum on D2+

[dolores]

I didn't make it super clear before, but the main reasons I'm voting FoU are:
-FoU made a large deal about the fact that he thinks Superdorf is scum, the logic of which would imply that FoU is likely scum if Superdorf isn't. I don't think Superdorf is scum, so the case would imply FoU probably is. I don't agree with the case, but it's clear from the fact that FoU has presented the case that FoU thinks the reasoning of the case is valid, and therefore that FoU thinks that scum!FoU would act in the way that he has. The most generous interpretation of the case is that it is WIFOM, which would still make me think FoU is scum.
-Despite this case, FoU has voted for another player who he has given literally justification for voting and who has, in my opinion, brought the most unequivocally town game so far this D1. There's no reason or justification for this vote that I can think of besides that FoU is scum, and FoU has not provided me with any reason or justifcation for this vote.
That's it. I'm out. Hopefully there's a replacement before D2.

[Deus Asmoth]

dolores

Your response for part 2 here doesn't make much sense to me, mostly because I don't agree with FOU's original assertion for it. Not having read your role can't make you look like town since you don't know what side you're actually on, so ICT's day 1 play would be a null tell at best.

It blows my mind that you can not get this. How, exactly, do you plan to distinguish a vanilla townie from a player who doesn't know their role? Outside of open/semiopen setups where knowing you're a vanilla townie tells you whether or not other players could have that vanilla townie slot (rarely relevant D1), they'll play exactly the same. I guess the vanilla townie knows exactly how many of the other players are scum if the size of the scum team is known, while the no-pm player doesn't know whether or not they're taking up one of those slots, but if anything that's more likely to get you townread. Ignorance, and anticipation of ignorance, is the number one marker of town. Why do you think we lynch powerroles? They know more than the average townie should.

It blows my mind that you apparently are willing to give a town read to a player who has admitted to not knowing what side they're playing for.

Deus Asmoth: activity is the best measure of townyness. You've a history of relative inactivity as scum. How will you convince me you're town in this game?

No it isn't, and I'm pretty sure I have a history of relative inactivity in general. I don't really intend to do anything to convince you I'm town other than what I normally do.

Besides the fact that there's more anecdotal evidence of this than literally any other claim that has ever been made about tells/slips in mafia, it's also obvious from first principles. Town players can optimize their play for maximum volume of work without reducing their ability to be townread 'per unit work', whereas scum can't because they can't write stream-of-consicousness like town can.This will always be true and will always be what matters. Sure, relative to other players activity might not mean much if you're physically or psychologically unable (or unwilling) to devote more than a given amount of time or can't produce as much work per unit time as another player, but activity relative to a given player is always relevant and you, in particular, have given no reason why your established metagame can't be used to evaluate you without at least relatively high efficacy.

I have, actually. Your implication was that my activity is noticeable lower as scum than as town, which is blatantly untrue. And your breakdown from first principles is confirmation bias at its finest. If anything, a good scum player should be one with higher activity, since the optimal play for scum is both to appear to be town and to direct the town into pursuing bad lynches, which would both be aided by high activity under your assertions. Not to mention that:
1: Anecdotal evidence ain't worth shit.
And
B: There's also a lot more anecdotal evidence of town with low activity and scum with high activity than there is of any other mistaken tell in the game.
So your claim that it's a reliable scumtell is flat out wrong, whether intentional on your part or not.

And if you're writing stream of consciousness, you're not optimising your work in the first place, you're just spamming everyone else with more stuff they have to sift through to find what you're actually trying to say.

I think Tric wouldn't be a bad choice, but I'd probably shoot dolores. Partially to save waiting for a replacement, but also because it feels like they did a lot of talking about how valuable they are to the town alive and how much worse their scum game is, which gives me a few alarm bells. I also felt like their initial RVS question to me was strangely leading and based on misinformation.

Obviously it's leading, I already anticipated having to lynch scum!DA based on his inactivity, and that's a pain to do D1 without setting up for it from the start of RVS.
It's definitely not based on misinfo lol, the fact that you keep claiming this is further sign that you're trying to deny it because it is an accurate scumtell that will be used on you in this game.

Sure, man. It's a totally accurate scumtell, just like it was the last five times someone tried and failed to make a case on me based off it when I was town.
And it clearly is misinformation. You're presenting it as though it's a noticeable difference between me playing as town and me playing as scum, which is not the case. Therefore you're either deliberately trying to build a case on incorrect facts or you're trying to build a metagame case without actually knowing the meta of the person you're building a case on. Neither one of those is a great look for you.

IcyTea

I also felt like their initial RVS question to me was strangely leading and based on misinformation.

I'm inclined to think that Superdorf is town based on willingness to share information.

A personal attack is good provocation for an RVS question, though it has risks. What part of the question is misinformed?

The parts I've already mentioned, where dolores implied that low activity was a hallmark of my scum play rather me just having a fairly consistently low number of posts. I wouldn't have really classed it as a personal attack though.

Is there any reason scum!Superdorf wouldn't share the same information?

Yes. It gives information to the town early in the game, when as scum Superdorf could have held onto the information for at least another day with the reasonable excuse of not outing himself as an investigative role.

FOU explain to me how scum!Superdorf making up fake results would help the scum team. Also, as far as I can tell you haven't responded to the second part of my question to you about why your read of ICT would be influenced by how he acted when he didn't  (or claimed not to) know his alignment.

[Superdorf]

Right. I have time now. Game face. Here we go!
First, let's try for a readlist.

Spoiler: Readlist (click to show/hide)

dolores: Town. Dolores has confused me, flattered me, worried me-- and yet, she's done a tremendous amount of work towards rooting out illogical arguments, shoddy play and the like. I don't want to become the blind buddy-sheep again, so I intend to question her replacement extensively D2 (assuming we get one)... but I'm content with my read for now.

IcyTea: Slight town. On the one hand, he's played a solid game today! On the other... we've no way of knowing whether that'll change once he actually knows what alignment he's playing. The odds are in favor of his being town anyhow, but we'll see what happens.

Shadowclaw777: Slight town. He's rather out of touch with the course of things here, but that's perhaps forgivable; I intend to push him certainly, but I'm not looking to move the lynch that way yet. I like that he called out the whole "emotional manipulation" thing from earlier as counterproductive.

Naturegirl1999: Null. This is pretty normal play for her-- if anything, it's rather an improvement.

Deus Asmoth: Null. A latecomer, but I don't find anything real unsettling in his posts thus far.

Persus13: Slight scum. That meta thing with IcyTea was weird, and something that should really have waited until after the game.

TricMagic: Scum. Tric always looks like scum to me, but... one post. In the whole of D1. And that post was a non-post.

FallcyofUrist: Scum. Now I look at his posts here, he's only ever really pressured two people: me and IcyTea. The case on me? Sure, why not. I do strange stuff sometimes, figures it'd be interepreted as anti-town. The case on IcyTea? Confusing. IcyTea raised a perfectly valid point against me-- a point that FoU seems quite content with-- and yet he's voting IcyTea now for *not scumhunting*? I don't understand the logic behind that decision.

And that's that. Onwards!


FallacyofUrist

-A town player, knowing how useful Superdorf's census ability is at the massclaim stage, choses to protect Superdorf with some flavor of protection ability. Something like 'everyone who targets Superdorf is randomized' or 'protect Superdorf from kills'. So on and so forth. This is possible and should not be ignored, but what are the odds such an ability exists?

...

There is a Save ability in play.

Just sayin' 
But I'm not going to bother with that.

- By your current understanding of the game, is IcyTea bussing me?
- Elaborate on your case against IcyTea, please. My read is in place-- change my mind.


Naturegirl1999

The first game I played I was scum, it was a mix of being deliberately bad and actually not knowing what I was doing. The 2nd game I played I was Town. Because my only experience from last game was being scum, I had not a good idea of how to be Town, so in the previous game I played, which you moderated, the bad play wasn’t deliberate, but in the first game I played, moderated by IcyTea31, it was deliberate

Ah apologies, I meant last last game. Nice!

Now then... remember when I said

Spoiler: this? (click to show/hide)

Your power (or lack thereof) means nothing. You are here, you have a voice, and with that voice you can now determine who is scum and who is not.

Random lynching is indeed counterproductive for us. We're not doing that. We are using our voices to generate as much relevant material as possible, and we are assessing the voice of each player to determine their motives in speaking. By Day's end, we'll hopefully have the beginnings of an idea of who's working towards town ends and who is not... so long as people like me, and people like you, speak and observe and question and accuse.

Now ask each of those you've accused to explain their actions. Their answers will help us all to understand their motivations.

I'm going to ask that you take that, assume it applies to you, and ask a few questions accordingly. To whoever you like. Just to get a few more words out before Day's end.


IcyTea31

So, uh, I stumbled on this

Spoiler: old RVS question of yours (click to show/hide)

Which would you consider to be more important in a game like this: to know someone's abilities, or to know someone's alignment?

that I apparently missed earlier, and in the interest of completion I'll just say: alignment. I would much rather know somebody alignment than their abilities, regardless of how interesting said abilities may be. The knowledge of somebody's alignment can help prevent a mislynch! The knowledge of somebody's abilities... eh, not so much.

- Not that it matters anymore, but would you say the same?
- What's your readlist look like, right about now?
- When are you planning on cracking open that role PM you apparently still haven't read? As late as possible, or a bit earlier? Why?

notquitethere: Thank youuu
TricMagic: You alive there buddy?

[Persus13]

TricMagic hasn't posted on Bay12 since his post here. NQT: are prods a thing in this game? It looks like Fallacy is going to be lynched, and his behavior towards Superdorf has been weird, but I'm always pretty suspicious when the Day 1 bandwagon happens.

Shadowclaw: You've mainly been making comments on what shouldn't be Mafia tells, is there any Mafia tells you think people are actually displaying in this game?

dolores

How are you planning on determining ICT's alignment? How will you recover from the fact that there's no dialogue between the three of us that's actually relevant to the game beyond a pinch of stray RVS?

The usual way.

The strategy you mention is definitely one I've seen deployed before, but lurking is also something I've seen used effectively. The main issue with lurking is that it doesn't make for a fun game.

Voting people for metadrama outside of the thread also doesn't make for a fun game, but it doesn't mean you don't do it.

I'm having plenty of fun here, I don't know what you're talking about.

ICT:

I get this is a joke, but do you think you're acting scummy currently?

Certainly, but why should I be worried about acting scummy? There has never been an effective town player in this game who wasn't a little scummy. Even a town leader isn't free of power wolf suspicions. As long as I don't slip too far from "scummy" to "lynchable" I should be fine.

I like to enter D1 with wildcard plays and strange gambits, not because it's always effective, but because it creates intrigue and makes people want to keep playing. As they play and speak directly to me about my strange plays, I gain insights to them. Would you prefer if I used a more orthodox D1 strategy? Having all players start oddball would be ineffective, of course, so what would you consider to be the cutoff point for "too many D1 gambits"?

I've seen people do the "not read their role PM" thing before, and I didn't really have strong feelings either way. I don't think its a bad play, just an interesting one that I don't have any interest in, and I'm keeping an eye on your play to see how it changes up. I will say you've become a bit more serious, but I'm not sure if that's just based on coming out of RVS.

Superdorf

I got a bad feeling earlier from dolores pointing you as a town read. I looked back, and it looks like in this post you copied several of dolores' arguments and have been buddying to them.

I mean, a lot of that is just conventional Mafia wisdom though, they're just getting it from the same source. What makes this sucmmy as opposed to merely copying?

FallacyofUrist:

I believe you may be underestimating the usefulness of a census power, particularly a double-list census power. With enough census information out there, combined with a massclaim... I can't see that going very well for the mafia. If Superdorf is town then in the longer run he is an immense threat to the mafia, especially once his ability is proven by someone dying matching his information.

Not really. Knowing all the roles in town isn't especially useful without a means of verification, and this is in a game where the Census has no way of sussing out roles being random or useless.

Now, lying and claiming you didn't read your role PM seems a bit more likely. You're intelligent enough to see the foolishness of not reading your role PM, but lying about not reading it? As a scum player that would throw any read on you into doubt for Day 1. It encourages people to pay less attention to you, or at the very least any read that may be formed.

I've seen people not read their role PM in games before, have you not? To be fair, sometimes they don't announce it. I think its an interesting idea that you think IcyTea is lying here, but I don't understand why you're so confident about it.

Superdorf:

-A town player, knowing how useful Superdorf's census ability is at the massclaim stage, choses to protect Superdorf with some flavor of protection ability. Something like 'everyone who targets Superdorf is randomized' or 'protect Superdorf from kills'. So on and so forth. This is possible and should not be ignored, but what are the odds such an ability exists?

...

There is a Save ability in play.

Just sayin' 
But I'm not going to bother with that.

To be fair, that Save ability could be random,self-targeted or something else.

[Superdorf]

TricMagic hasn't posted on Bay12 since his post here.

Ohh. That explains a thing or two!
Seeing as we've got some AWOL players, I've let Secretdorf know over in the newbie-thread that we could use a replacement here. We'll see what happens.

To be fair, that Save ability could be random,self-targeted or something else.

Mm, yes.

[notquitethere]

D1 Votes
Superdorf - Icytea31 [1]
Persus13
Dolores
TricMagic - Naturegirl1999 [1]
FallacyofUrist - Deus Asmoth, Dolores, Superdorf [3]
Deus Asmoth
Naturegirl1999
Shadowclaw777 - Persus13 [1]
Icytea31 - FallacyofUrist [1]

Hammer: 5 votes. Day ends: 21st December 4.30pm GMT (about 6 hours time).

Let me know if I've made any mistakes in vote count.

[IcyTea31]

PFP.

- Not that it matters anymore, but would you say the same?
- What's your readlist look like, right about now?
- When are you planning on cracking open that role PM you apparently still haven't read? As late as possible, or a bit earlier? Why?

-Absolutely.
-I don't have access to my notes right now, will compile a list later.
-I've read it. Whoop-te-doo, I'm town.

I mean, a lot of that is just conventional Mafia wisdom though, they're just getting it from the same source. What makes this sucmmy as opposed to merely copying?

It combined with the sudden change in attitude hinted at a hypothetical scumbuddy saying "hey, make a post like dolores, it'll look towny".