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[hector13]

I have an obligation to pay attention to the game because I’m in the game. I might not be as interested in playing as I should be, certainly nowhere near the level I would get to in games gone by... but I want to at least make the game competitive for those who do have that interest. Paying attention is the easiest way to do that. That’s was frankly all you were getting on D1 though, other than a little shallow analysis.

You suffer from the burden of proficiency, though. You posted a lot on D1, and seemed happy with a policy lynch over anything else. You questioned Tric a lot, got nowhere as expected, and then piggy backed my reasoning on IonMatrix as a better policy lynch. There didn’t seem to be any initiative in your play beyond that, even afte my “hey guys, please don’t settle on the easy Tric lynch” post.

I was voting for IonMatrix because D1 was spent exploring policy lynches, and thus there was little for me to go on regarding building a case beyond the “this policy lynch is better than that policy lynch” I came up with when asking y’all why Tric was at L-1. That “case” was my reason for the unelaborated vote change at the end of the day; I voted dolores prior to that to tie up the vote, and I didn’t want to lynch dolores, then moved it back to my preferred policy lynch because that seemed to be where things were going.

As fer cat-herding, the post I voted back to IonMatrix was at 4.15 my time. I was playing games with my cousin then, as is my wont on a Friday afternoon, I voted quickly as we were either between lobbies of whatever game we were playing at the time (probably Dead By Daylight) or he was having a cigarette, because he is a silly asthmatic. This was followed by the return of my wife from her work shortly after 5. I was spending time with her that evening as she was gone over the weekend. The posts I made here after that were when she was otherwise engaged, getting her dinner ready as she had leftovers of stuff I don’t eat for the Ameripol one, and the last post here when she was on the phone with her parents bashing out the details of what they were doing on Sunday.

It’s easier to type “tired ‘cause of cats” though.

Let’s explore the idea though. What is interesting about me paying more or less attention than you might expect?

What did you mean by me being less passionate in that last post anyway? I was willing to let it slide then because it was the end of the day and I wasn’t able to invest the time necessary to explore it, but we’ve got nothing but time now.

[dolores]

I've got a moderator question pending, but in the meantime:
...
Apologies for holding my cards close to my chest, but I am trying to make sense of a few tidbits that expand to many scenarios I must eliminate before I can openly present the correct one.

You've asked if IonMatrix would have shown up as a modkill or a regular kill if he qualified for a modkill in the same night that he was killed.
I considered asking something similar myself when I saw it, but I knew it would come up
Alternatively: you've performed an action which would have shown up by now, so you believe someone someone blocked it or whatever and are asking about action priority. That's boring though.

Dolores: what are your thoughts on me and hector? Going for the lurker isn't out of character for you, but you're reading a lot from a lack of posts. What would you name as the biggest difference between noobtown and noobscum play?

You're(ICT's) obviously about to make some sort of mechanical-information-backed play, so I think I'd prefer to give a comprehensive analysis of you after that. In the short form, you've either played super honestly (i.e. 'conventional town') or are setting up the groundwork for gut-reads. The former should appeal to NG and the later should appeal to me, unless I think it's manufactured for that purpose (i.e. outside of wine). Your big problem is that since you're blending conventional and what I'll call quantum play (in lieu of having a better description onhand), you've got nothing in a threeway if there's a non-KM player who both doesn't buy it and out-competes you in the spectral range the other player sees in. I imagine you're looking to clear a player and shoot outside of that, so I also suspect (as mentioned above) that you do have a kill.
Hector's excuse(s) are shitty but I think he joined to make up numbers so it doesn't really surprise me. His activity is conditional on there actually being something to post about (already) so I don't have any problem with bringing him to lylo because I can grill him then. Hector is putting in a lot of time but not a lot of effort, which are fundamentally different things. He doesn't like you (ICT) for a variety of reasons, including the fact that you've been trying to set up literal actual WIFOM and the fact that you're not as cute as me and therefore ugly in comparison. I've done a fair amount of work to dodge both KM!hector and town!hector kills, so I haven't had to make a strong effort here to date. He loses (is the lynch target, so loses regardless of alignment) in a H/ICT/NG trio as well and is in a shitty spot to make a case on me so I don't think he's likely to win as KM. If I'm forced to choose between NG and Hector, I'm going to choose to kill the player that's failed to take their opportunity to give me more material. The case you're making on hector right now is basically my present case on NG, except hector is less guilty.

I'm not so much reading a lot so much as not reading anything else, and therefore having read a very high percentage of negative things (about NG). Each of us had an equal chance to roll KM, so evaluated with that background, the confidence with which I can say that NG is definitely not KM is pretty damn low. NG has done, as it were, one slightly good thing and one(+2 sustained in not responding to me) really bad things.
I'll stick with the hector comparison: hector's activelurking is much less bad then NG's, but even if it wasn't, he's done more outside of it. It's not a huge amount more, but it's nothing bad and it's mostly fairly useful. Outside of his activelurking, I'd say hector's about as towny as IonMatrix was D1. Balanced by his activelurking, he's still better off than you and much better off than NG.

Noobtown vs. Noobscum outside of this context (i.e. outside of KotM)? Noobtown answer questions. Noob!foo tend to be really easy to clear because they post in a way that's intuitive and not cagey at all, which is why it's so easy to win games which are mostly active noobtown as an active experienced townie. Because the way they answer questions gives away their alignment, noobscum know, are told, or intuit this and try to avoid responding to cases; when they do, they're usually caught.

PPE:
I've been ninja'd by two meaningful posts while writing this so I'll get to those in a bit

[dolores]

I was voting for IonMatrix because D1 was spent exploring policy lynches, and thus there was little for me to go on regarding building a case beyond the “this policy lynch is better than that policy lynch”

So do you have a case on NG at all beyond 'they're inactive and not responding to questions they could have answered'? Because I'm not gonna lie, this is a really shitty case to end the round on, and you've stated that it's your preferred lynch at present.
Naturegirl1999
Can you act? Did you act N1? Why haven't you responded to my feelings any of the questions I've asked you so far? Who do you think should be lynched?

It really looks like you're paying more attention to this game than you[hector13] try to appear to.

I actually wrote pretty much everything about hector in the above post after seeing this one, so what's above is my actual response.
Outside of your mysterious unclaimed mechanical/moderator information we're waiting on, you've got nothing in this game but a (borrowed) case on NG for active lurking and a weaker case on hector13 - for active lurking. What's your opinion on me? I'm circling around this idea that you don't seem prepared to go for a dolores lynch at all, so either you think I'm clear or you're KM, in which case you think I'm clear. Am I reading this right? Is this what you're waiting on from the mod?

[Naturegirl1999]

I don’t have any active abilities, so I can’t act. Right now, I’m not sure who to lynch

[IcyTea31]

I have an obligation to pay attention to the game because I’m in the game. I might not be as interested in playing as I should be, certainly nowhere near the level I would get to in games gone by... but I want to at least make the game competitive for those who do have that interest. Paying attention is the easiest way to do that. That’s was frankly all you were getting on D1 though, other than a little shallow analysis.

How does a token effort make the game notably more competitive than

You suffer from the burden of proficiency, though. You posted a lot on D1, and seemed happy with a policy lynch over anything else. You questioned Tric a lot, got nowhere as expected, and then piggy backed my reasoning on IonMatrix as a better policy lynch. There didn’t seem to be any initiative in your play beyond that, even afte my “hey guys, please don’t settle on the easy Tric lynch” post.

Yes, I was playing at a lower profile than usual to dodge the possibility of getting daykilled. This meant more waiting for players to answer questions I asked them and less grandstanding when they didn't. If you look back, you'll notice that I started a dialogue with everyone, but only Tric and dolores really kept responding to me.

I didn’t want to lynch dolores

Why not?

Let’s explore the idea though. What is interesting about me paying more or less attention than you might expect?

What did you mean by me being less passionate in that last post anyway? I was willing to let it slide then because it was the end of the day and I wasn’t able to invest the time necessary to explore it, but we’ve got nothing but time now.

In past games, you've been highly passionate and provocative right from your first post on D1, while in this one you're playing far more aloofly, or apparently aloofly, than usual. Even during this D2, you've been very much on the defensive; I'd have expected you to come up with a case against me in response to my accusations and not just my D1 behaviour.

He doesn't like you (ICT) for a variety of reasons, including the fact that you've been trying to set up literal actual WIFOM.

Projecting.

I've done a fair amount of work to dodge both KM!hector and town!hector kills, so I haven't had to make a strong effort here to date. He loses (is the lynch target, so loses regardless of alignment) in a H/ICT/NG trio as well and is in a shitty spot to make a case on me so I don't think he's likely to win as KM. If I'm forced to choose between NG and Hector, I'm going to choose to kill the player that's failed to take their opportunity to give me more material.

You believe you'd have the advantage in a D/H/ICT three-way. Presumably, because you've seen me trivially manipulate NG into voting with me in the past. Do you believe you would win D/ICT/NG, regardless of anyone's alignment?

The case you're making on hector right now is basically my present case on NG, except hector is less guilty.

And that my case is generating data, as hector is actually responding to it, unlike NG on your case.

I'm not so much reading a lot so much as not reading anything else, and therefore having read a very high percentage of negative things (about NG).

That's my point. You have a more certain read on someone who has provided little data than on people who have actively interacted with you. It should go by intuition that more data would equal a more certain read. You even note this yourself by saying that a three-way with all players active is an autowin for town.

Balanced by his activelurking, he's still better off than you and much better off than NG.

An interesting order of lynchability, considering you know everyone's roles.

Noobtown vs. Noobscum outside of this context (i.e. outside of KotM)? Noobtown answer questions. Noob!foo tend to be really easy to clear because they post in a way that's intuitive and not cagey at all, which is why it's so easy to win games which are mostly active noobtown as an active experienced townie. Because the way they answer questions gives away their alignment, noobscum know, are told, or intuit this and try to avoid responding to cases; when they do, they're usually caught.

In my experience (both as and playing with and against), noobscum are indeed generally motivated by fear of getting caught. But I haven't seen that as an unwillingness to post, more as playing defensively: actively responding to any direct questions, but keeping a low profile otherwise.

I actually wrote pretty much everything about hector in the above post after seeing this one, so what's above is my actual response.
Outside of your mysterious unclaimed mechanical/moderator information we're waiting on, you've got nothing in this game but a (borrowed) case on NG for active lurking and a weaker case on hector13 - for active lurking.

Here we come again to the debate of our differing playstyles. Remember, not every case I make is for the purpose of getting someone lynched and not every post's intent is to get a reaction from its addressee.

I'm circling around this idea that you don't seem prepared to go for a dolores lynch at all

That's because it's not you whom I need to convince that I have a case against you.


Naturegirl: in the exchange around the deadline, why was the part that caught your eye the cats and not anything game-related? What did you think about all the arguments right before it? If you're not sure to lynch, how about you go read through the whole thread and say what you think about each alive player?

[hector13]

What data are you generating with your case against me? I’ve told you I have minimal interest in the game, you don’t believe me and keep pressing me for the real reason. I keep telling you I have minimal interest in the game, you don’t believe me ad infinitum or until I get bored and tell you to fuck off and then you take me being frustrated at going round in circles as me being ultra-defensive and use that as the assertion I’m KM.

You’re expecting me to make a case on you, but that’s pre-supposing that I think you’re KM (I don’t think so, really) or you think I’m KM and that I think you’re the best mislynch (I’m not, and you’re not).

The accusation you made was explained away by me being tired and distracted. If you don’t believe that, that’s not my problem, I’m not going to reveal the super-secret hidden reason if you keep pushing me on it (hint: there isn’t one) I’ll just get fucked off, and I don’t need to be fucked off. That’s not being defensive, it’s me not wanting to go through a stupid discussion that reveals nothing about me.

Now, this feels like D1 again. You seem dead set on pushing a case on me for not giving a fuck, while you think dolores is pushing a case on NG for doing nothing. Policy lynches. What makes me the better one?

I engaged with the game on D1, I influenced the game on D1 by asking why Tric was the best lynch, and despite having nothing to go on beyond you being cagey about what happened during the night and not revealing that even though it would probably help the town, I’m around on D2 for questions because NG hasn’t shown up, half the town being silent is not interesting for us or any spectators.

[dolores]

How does a token effort make the game notably more competitive than

Because he can sell it because nobody here respects him and he's pulled this shit before as scum
fuck you, I'm not clearing hector until you actually claim your kill

He doesn't like you (ICT) for a variety of reasons, including the fact that you've been trying to set up literal actual WIFOM.

Projecting.

Nah. You and NQT don't like me because of those cases. I don't have a use for them though because that threeway isn't going to happen.

I've done a fair amount of work to dodge both KM!hector and town!hector kills, so I haven't had to make a strong effort here to date. He loses (is the lynch target, so loses regardless of alignment) in a H/ICT/NG trio as well and is in a shitty spot to make a case on me so I don't think he's likely to win as KM. If I'm forced to choose between NG and Hector, I'm going to choose to kill the player that's failed to take their opportunity to give me more material.

You believe you'd have the advantage in a D/H/ICT three-way. Presumably, because you've seen me trivially manipulate NG into voting with me in the past. Do you believe you would win D/ICT/NG, regardless of anyone's alignment?

Interesting reading.
As town (have to lynch KM to win), the only scenario which worries me is D/H/NG because I don't think I could pick your case on hector up straight away and suspect I might run out of time before I could clear hector if you were daykilled right now. KM!hector in this scenario could probably lurk into an ambiguous day ending varying on how NG responds, which is essentially the danger here.
As KM, that situation is the most trivial. I win any trio where I don't get caught in a stalemate, though.
D/ICT/NG is nice for KM!D because I know I can just cross with you and win when you get hammered.

To actually answer your question, the only case on me is a way shittier version of the case on you (ICT), so there's no lose condition for me in D/ICT threeways besides hammering the wrong person as town.

The case you're making on hector right now is basically my present case on NG, except hector is less guilty.

And that my case is generating data, as hector is actually responding to it, unlike NG on your case.

Sure, but I have your case to rely on for that.
You've got no suspicions whatsoever regarding the fact that Naturegirl, a player that has been active in the past during games where they were town, is now deliberately avoiding posting anything related to finding scum?

That's my point. You have a more certain read on someone who has provided little data than on people who have actively interacted with you. It should go by intuition that more data would equal a more certain read. You even note this yourself by saying that a three-way with all players active is an autowin for town.

No, the inactive player makes all my reads weaker. Reads are probabilistic. There's no level of scummy that you could be that would change my suspicions about NG, only overshadow them in terms of hardness.
Clearing players is a practical way to lift the cerebral burden of this, by pretending a 95 is a 100 and so allowing it to be removed from the working sheet for the sake of a Day. (publicly, enduringly) Clearing the wrong player at mylo is autolose if I die though, and I can't prevent that at this point, so I'm not handing that opportunity over to someone who has the power to control it.

Balanced by his activelurking, he's still better off than you and much better off than NG.

An interesting order of lynchability, considering you know everyone's roles.

Not really.
What's Naturegirl's role?
If hector's role is of the variety that I'm thinking it is, most trios with town!hector are autowin for town under stalling rules. That goes for me as KM too, now that I think about it.

In my experience (both as and playing with and against), noobscum are indeed generally motivated by fear of getting caught. But I haven't seen that as an unwillingness to post, more as playing defensively: actively responding to any direct questions, but keeping a low profile otherwise.

Bullshit, or more like: I'd call that badscum rather than noobscum. Or maybe you're right, and I'm thinking of badnoobscum. Actually, you're definitely right, that's noobscum and not badnoobscum, which are different things.
Naturegirl isn't noobtown, as demonstrated by the fact that I don't know their alignment. So they're either badtown or badscum. The thing is, naturegirl has finished games as goodnoobtown in the past, so there's no way to sell that they could be active and can't think of a way to be productive as town.

Here we come again to the debate of our differing playstyles. Remember, not every case I make is for the purpose of getting someone lynched and not every post's intent is to get a reaction from its addressee.

So what's hector's role? Farming for townie points only works if I'm not here, because I did too good a job of it on D1 for comparison.

I'm circling around this idea that you don't seem prepared to go for a dolores lynch at all

That's because it's not you whom I need to convince that I have a case against you.

Well you've lost the chance to lynch me completely, so I guess I should prepare for the upcoming H/NG/ICT D3. Which will be done if the case against NG ever falls through. I guess it's done now if they're actually KM, but that's a bit eh.
Here's WIFOM I can post in the thread because nobody else will ever buy it: KM!hector will never produce that situation.

Right now, I’m not sure who to lynch

Since nobody has claimed a kill, we're probably not going to lynch so KM has to kill someone and give us a threeway.
Do you have any thoughts on the players that are still alive regarding the TricMagic lynch?

PPE: no PPE, just ninja'd

[dolores]

Fuck it, whatever.
Hector is 99% town. I have no mechanical ability to clear him, ever, so I'll commit to the read.
He's playing a perfect 1:1 match to town!webadict in an almost identical situation. He's done something similar (but obviously different) as scum.
KM!hector has way less motivation since he's not on a team, so we'd have gotten something even weaker than NSBM6 and we'd have quickhammered him by now.
Naturegirl1999:
Thoughts on the above?

[IcyTea31]

What data are you generating with your case against me?

Data on how dolores reacts to it. It's a tried and true method relying on the fact that dolores tends to react to interactions that don't involve her, especially if they're not up to her standard.

Policy lynches. What makes me the better one?

That it causes more controversy to accuse you.

As town (have to lynch KM to win), the only scenario which worries me is D/H/NG because I don't think I could pick your case on hector up straight away a

Why would you pick up my case on hector? It's total BS.

D/ICT/NG is nice for KM!D because I know I can just cross with you and win when you get hammered.

I'd doubt it, considering how the trick to getting the hammer with NG is asking nicely, something you would have trouble with. Past game:

Naturegirl1999: if you believe FoU is suspicious, why aren't you voting for him this close to the day ending?

Fair point
FallacyofUrist

It's also interesting how you can't imagine going into D/ICT/NG with NG as KM.

Sure, but I have your case to rely on for that.
You've got no suspicions whatsoever regarding the fact that Naturegirl, a player that has been active in the past during games where they were town, is now deliberately avoiding posting anything related to finding scum?

I've been the mod looking over scum!NG, and this doesn't match that experience. Hanlon's Razor points to her being apathetic rather than malicious in the lack of posting. Most likely explanation is that she doesn't care about the game because she's not the KM and one can sign up for a later round regardless of survival.

What's Naturegirl's role?

Town!NG wouldn't lie about having no active abilities, and I heavily suspect scum!NG wouldn't either.

If hector's role is of the variety that I'm thinking it is, most trios with town!hector are autowin for town under stalling rules.

It's not what you think it is, then.

Naturegirl isn't noobtown, as demonstrated by the fact that I don't know their alignment. So they're either badtown or badscum. The thing is, naturegirl has finished games as goodnoobtown in the past, so there's no way to sell that they could be active and can't think of a way to be productive as town.

What about "noobvivor"?

So what's hector's role?

You shouldn't have to ask this if your nightgame is up to par.

[IcyTea31]

Oh, right, because I must vote for something:

No Lynch

[dolores]

Why would you pick up my case on hector? It's total BS.

Because it's total BS. The goal is to clear him, right? Why would I bring a case that could actually gain traction?

I'd doubt it, considering how the trick to getting the hammer with NG is asking nicely, something you would have trouble with.

I'd rather lose than stoop to such underhanded methods

It's also interesting how you can't imagine going into D/ICT/NG with NG as KM.

NG wouldn't roll dice for the kill

Most likely explanation is that she doesn't care about the game because she's not the KM and one can sign up for a later round regardless of survival.

Shouldn't it be the other way around, since KM is the only role with no failstate and everyone else can lose?
I doubt NG is playing by survivor/sk rules, anyway.

Naturegirl isn't noobtown, as demonstrated by the fact that I don't know their alignment. So they're either badtown or badscum. The thing is, naturegirl has finished games as goodnoobtown in the past, so there's no way to sell that they could be active and can't think of a way to be productive as town.

What about "noobvivor"?

Doesn't exist. Noobs play survivor as town, pros play survivor as scum, baddies play survivor as modkills.
You're going to assert that NG has realized that we're playing KotM at some point between the start of the game and 19 hours into it?

So what's hector's role?

You shouldn't have to ask this if your nightgame is up to par.

I've never in my life had a nightgame, except in games which allow PMs and so let you play the daygame at night.
I wasn't here for N1, though, no.
No kills then?
No Lynch

[Naturegirl1999]

You want a role claim? I am Survivor Mirror
No Lynch

[dolores]

You want a role claim? I am Survivor Mirror

That's unambiguously not something anybody asked.

Spoiler: things somebody asked (click to show/hide)

Naturegirl: in the exchange around the deadline, why was the part that caught your eye the cats and not anything game-related? What did you think about all the arguments right before it? If you're not sure to lynch, how about you go read through the whole thread and say what you think about each alive player?

Fuck it, whatever.
Hector is 99% town. I have no mechanical ability to clear him, ever, so I'll commit to the read.
He's playing a perfect 1:1 match to town!webadict in an almost identical situation. He's done something similar (but obviously different) as scum.
KM!hector has way less motivation since he's not on a team, so we'd have gotten something even weaker than NSBM6 and we'd have quickhammered him by now.
Naturegirl1999:
Thoughts on the above?

[IcyTea31]

Because it's total BS. The goal is to clear him, right? Why would I bring a case that could actually gain traction?

Because if you do it in good faith and end up not clearing him, you want to continue on to an actual lynch. By your stated playstyle, you would want to begin with the good case so as not to lose the opportunity for the lynch.

NG wouldn't roll dice for the kill

NG wouldn't kill hector? That's WIFOM.

Shouldn't it be the other way around, since KM is the only role with no failstate and everyone else can lose?

If you're sure there's going to be another round, dying isn't a failstate. Ergo, one could honestly believe that this game is all for themselves and lurk without fearing a lynch. It's a wrong conclusion, but it's one that can be reached after misunderstanding how this game works.

I doubt NG is playing by survivor/sk rules, anyway.

She certainly seems to think she is.

You're going to assert that NG has realized that we're playing KotM at some point between the start of the game and 19 hours into it?

A bit under 14 hours, to be specific. At least, that's when the all-for-themselves idea comes up and lurking begins.

I've never in my life had a nightgame, except in games which allow PMs and so let you play the daygame at night.
I wasn't here for N1, though, no.

I think we have different definitions of nightgame.

[Persus13]

Votecount:
No lynch: Naturegirl, dolores, Icytea
Not voting: Hector13

Hector13 has been proddded.

Day will end at 10:30 AM EDT (UTC -4) on Thursday, March 26th.