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[Quaksna]

What is the thing that is ultimately to be shown though? Is it not appreciation of the music, whether it be ones own or that of others? And so does the fruit not ultimately lie in the eventual (and favorable) perception of it? What sort of appreciation can one feel for music, if not the appeal music has to ones' senses?

That was to say, that of the composer solely. Should he be serious about the craft, he will move on from the old it in time, per natural improvement. That was to comment more on the "do what you like" vs. "use the preferred methods".

I am not disregarding the perception part - again, that's how we are to experience, I am only acknowledging the innate qualities music can have, as described in TD1's second line, because those are objective and thus sure to be generally perceived better, you don't have to rely on someone's subjective tastes. The overall experience will inevitably draw from both the objective and subjective.

Since I do know there can be objective quality in music, yes, it can exist regardless of experience. It is set in stone, it is real.

If the TD1's summary was your point the whole time then ye we've been missing each other xD I got the impression you do not believe there is objective merit to be found in art, and it is all contained within the perception. I say said perception is merely the channel by which we experience something of inherent quality - to how extent can we recognize that depends.

[MeimieFan88]

I got the impression you do not believe there is objective merit to be found in art, and it is all contained within the perception. I say said perception is merely the channel by which we experience something of inherent quality - to how extent can we recognize that depends.

When I say perception I mean it as the vehicle in which we experience art. And so perception is a mandatory process in judging art, and is the only way in which we can know art at all (or anything for that matter). So it was confusing when you seemed to take the view that perception says little about art, when my view was that perception is the only means by which we can know it at all. It seems perhaps we had a different definition of the word 'perception'? I did not mean 'taste', which is more individualized and says more about the individual than the artwork. I was using perception as more of a synonym for 'experiencing', which is a common process to all, and which I think we can agree is necessary in judging art. I think that was the misunderstanding?

Anyway as far as objective quality in music goes, my view is that for most people, it is something shared. But you have weird people who may hear sound differently, who may perceive it differently. It could be that the same overarching rules apply to everyone, but since peoples' sensory organs have distinct quirks, the rules for them get morphed accordingly. I don't know. I make music that sounds good to me... I don't know how else to do it and I don't expect everybody to like my stuff, though I would certainly want them to. But I can't really get behind making stuff that sounds bad to me but doing it anyway because someone else likes it, or says it's the right way. I'll experiment but ultimately I need to like my own work. Maybe I'm selfish but enjoyment of my work is a large part of what drives me to do it. ::shrug::~

[Quaksna]

Through perception we can recognize what is already there. If you meant perception as the phenomenon of sense then yes, I suppose I might have misunderstood it at places, given subjectivity was thrown in in the discussion, I apologize for that - you perceive things the same way, but how do you process the information, that's the very fickle bit, that's what I meant, senses aren't malicious like that. You of course have to be able to perceive something in order to experience its quality, what I was saying was even if you didn't, that won't change said something in its nature, and thus unaffecting its quality, you just won't be able to perceive it.

For the second paragraph, those with impaired senses are aberrations and thus I don't see much use in mentioning them. Their perception might be different, but the music once again, will be the same. Via functioning senses we discovered, what makes music consistently good, after all.

Also I feel like I have to say, I am not scolding you for doing music for your enjoyment - It's awesome it brings you joy, and I know you've achieved a level of competency that it does to others too. That is why I feel it a pity when I hear art is subjective from you in particular, that's where I have to disagree. And I want tell people they can go beyond, and get the most out of their talents.

[MeimieFan88]

You of course have to be able to perceive something in order to experience its quality

Yay, I'm glad we agree on that! That was the basic bit I was trying to establish. Perception/experience is the only means by which quality can truly be known.

Indeed, perceiving something does not change the quality of the thing. It is objective in that sense. However I'm not certain that goodness/quality is perceived by all in the same way. It could be, but there's no irrefutable proof of it, since I cannot perceive what another perceives. If someone tells me they find the V-I resolution dissonant and unpleasant, I can't tell them "no, you're wrong!" because they are describing their experience which I'm not privy to. They may very well be perceiving things as such, and just because 99% of the population agrees with me, doesn't automatically make them wrong. I'll admit it may be hard to argue that someone who is entirely deaf would be a comparable judge of music to someone normal, but for someone who has a slightly altered sense of hearing, it's not so clear. People could be perceiving things in a different way and one can't really say their faculties are simply inferior and thus their opinion doesn't matter. It could even be that they are in some ways geniuses. But if their genius is something I can't ever perceive, is it still genius to me? Is it even relevant to me? These are somewhat hypothetical possibilities I'm bringing up though. In reality I don't know how every other person perceives music, I only have my own direct experience of it, which is the only reliable thing I have and thus why I value it so.

But whether or not beauty is objective, I don't think it should deter artists from trying to reach their ideal vision of it. In a sense, even the subjective is objective, in that one’s own aesthetic sense was decided not by oneself, but by ‘the powers that be’. So whether or not there are rules that apply to all, there definitely are rules that apply to the individual, that were put there not by the individual but by the universe. As for whether these rules apply to everyone, I'm not sure, but there is a lot of evidence for it through the testimonies of others and the formulation of music theory. Honestly it also kind of depends on how you define the words 'objective' and 'subjective' and in what sense you're using them. If anything this discussion has brought to my attention how words can take different meanings for different people which can easily lead to misunderstanding and confusion haha.

[Quaksna]

They may very well be perceiving things as such, and just because 99% of the population agrees with me, doesn't automatically make them wrong.

Well it's no just because the ratio, we can safely say that if they happen to have such problem, then they have something wrong with them, and that's not to belittle them for it, a mere observation. It's nice you want to include them. With that, for our intents and purposes (and with the ratio to boot indeed ) they can be disregarded. Hence you could tell them that they are wrong, a reality caused by the hampered perception, which they'd be surely well aware of, or if you feel that is too harsh, that there is something wrong with them, with their senses, and that makes the conclusion iffy.

I do feel if someone tells you that the V-I resolution sounds unpleasant to them, they might be not lying (as in, accurately describing their experience), but that tells me there is indeed something wrong with that someone's perception (and by extention, if they don't like Bach jokes aside, that would be a logical conclusion in the scenario), because from the standard I've laid out, the progression is in its nature consonant. Maybe if you do not want to call it objective out right, I suppose it might be better explained as the aforementioned "for our intents and purposes", for us humans, as really, for making music that is designated to be pleasant, those standards are more than sensible.

Indeed why I make such a deal out of it comes from the mentality/philosophy mainly, I am of a much more ancient mind - trying to maximize potential as per applying my principles across all fields of life, and generally avoiding being sentimental, as that hardly ever helped me with anything, be it on the internet or in RL. Hence I see a web of moral implications interwoven throughout all of the world.

I'd love to post some music again, I have like five songs written out at this point, to various extent, but work is going slowly, I am quite occupied these days. But I got to buy a new mic ^^ still, there's not much opportunity to record just yet. I've recently started to study chorals, and have written two with in basic four-voice setup, I suppose I can post them here, even if just the outlines, yet to be mixed, which I do not have an idea how to go 'bout it as of now anyway.

Choral 1 test

Choral 2 test

[MeimieFan88]

I like the chord progressions! Don't know what a choral is haha. Not super acquainted with classical music tbh. Although I was looking through my old folders the other day and found a classical thing I did a few years ago when I was making stock music. And I don't actually hate it haha. Was going for like an orchestral fantasy vibe, a la LotR or something.

[Quaksna]

I like the chord progressions! Don't know what a choral is haha. Not super acquainted with classical music tbh. Although I was looking through my old folders the other day and found a classical thing I did a few years ago when I was making stock music. And I don't actually hate it haha. Was going for like an orchestral fantasy vibe, a la LotR or something.

That was nice - though the string pizzicato-esque instrument being out of rhythm was distracting, it was coming sometimes early and then again late. The harmony alltogether was nice, thought it all felt quite aimless, still servicable. I did enjoy the sparkly effects, those worked really well.

Regarding choral - it's the ancient monophonic gregorian chant, I am not sure how is it callled across different languages, but it's the earliest music written down I talked about some time ago, though back then I had much more limited grasp of it, now I am being trained to correctly read and interpret it. Many composers would pick an old melody and give it a proper accompaniment, what I did here was to try create such tunes using the modes and conventions from back then, and then give it an interesting harmony afterwards. There really is a magnificient medieval-ey feel to it, very useful for my endeavors. More coming!

[MeimieFan88]

Can definitely see where you're coming from! Here's another classical thing from a couple years ago. With the most stock music title ever xD.

And here is something more recent I've been working on! Have really fallen in love with the Future Funk genre UwU. Lots of energy + jazzyness + colorful aesthetics is so my jam~

That's neat regarding chorals! Ancient stuff has a way of bringing about a feel of those times. The same with every genre I guess, the feelings music evokes is such a big part of what draws me to it. Like with Future Funk it takes me to the 80s, and I've never even been there. I don't know how you can get nostalgic about places you've never been to, yet it's happening lol.

[Quaksna]

Finally finished something yesterday 

Here's a little song about an ancient big city. The first part has the characters enter it, and take in the grand walls and towers. The second half has them reach the inside, with all the markets, fairs and joys, also it uses one of the old medieval modes I talked about, was very fun to make.

[brewer bob]

That was a nice one! It did evoke a certain feel of grandness and the second part was quite uplifting.

[Duuvian]

Finally finished something yesterday 

Here's a little song about an ancient big city. The first part has the characters enter it, and take in the grand walls and towers. The second half has them reach the inside, with all the markets, fairs and joys, also it uses one of the old medieval modes I talked about, was very fun to make.

I listened to a bit of it, it reminds me of the Everquest 1 theme that plays when it starts up (or used to), perhaps it shares a similarity in using medieval modes, but I don't know.

Do you use samples (including live instrument recordings specifically for the song) or synthesizers for your notes? I was assuming samples. I ask because I was wondering if there is a good sample repository where you can grab sample packs for free. I particularly would like to find good instrumental notes, especially ones with variations on the notes as far as what a human with an instrument and mic can make easier than fiddling with synthesizers; not pitch as that I can do pretty easily but instead things like trilling or some of the things that can be done with horns; it would take a lot of figuring out what knobs to turn and then set events on the knob to turn it automatically which is a PITA for individual notes in the software I use (though it's probably there is an easier way to do individual notes in a song that I'm not aware of; completely self taught). The classic method used to be to snip notes from other songs, but I wonder if there is a repository with sample packs that would make that easier.

EDIT: I also haven't looked for sample packs in my own yet recently (in many years) so it may be they are there simply waiting for a search engine result. If you have any advice as to good results though that might help when I go do that.

[Quaksna]

yo mister ken i habe kwezzshn

I indeed use sample libraries, I do not possess an orchestra at the moment  Sometimes I record organ, alone for a full song, only once did I use an improv solo in an otherwise sampled piece. These last two songs I used a premium library, puting together a collection of live recordings like that takes effort after all, but I was scouring for free ones for some time before then. If you google for a particular instrument, you should be able to find it pretty easily, if it's not too fancy, however do believe me even a lot of the free plugins can get quite curious and obscure. There's this one called Sonatina orcherstra that served me very well, the sound is obviously inferior but there are basic functions like reverb and attack, most instruments do have staccatos too. Edirrol had much better sound, however there was an issue with the plugin that it didn't remember the instrument setup between sessions, which made using it quite a pain, I don't think this happens generally with all software, though it was a known occurance from what I've read.

My procedure right now is such: compose an outline in Musescore, three or four voices in it, those are then individually exported as MIDI files, upon which I apply the samples, and tweaking is all that remains. I'd like to get a setup to input the MIDI directly via a keyboard, which, like you have said, would aid a great deal to get some particular articulation done, don't have the room or funds for it now. Professional sample libraries I've usually include many articulation options for the instruments (in terms of intricate note length), it is a selling point and for the various knobs you describe and tricks like that, a MIDI keyboard won't suffice. Though sometimes they can vary greatly in volume or other qualities and thus using more within one projects requires more editing and trickery. But I say, don't be afraid of raw work - before I started writing the outlines I did insert each note individually, and there's merit to it too, since I didn't use fixed lengths (each note differing slightly, but still within a metre), the instruments end up sounding much more organic and natural. Whereas importing some pre-made melody might need adjusting with that particular instrument and its settings. Depends on what're you trying to achieve.

If you google something concrete I am sure you will stumble over a free library, I almost always did, whether it will sound okay is the iffy part. I do not know what your software supports, but do some digging and you can get stocked quickly. I wouldn't get where I am without the free ones to test my ideas on.

[BikeRacks]

But I got to buy a new mic ^^ still,

I'm like 2 months late on replying to this. What kinda Mic are you looking at getting?  I can be a bit of a gear nut at times, so definitely curious

[Quaksna]

Oh I'm nothing of a gear nut myself  dis some GXT 252 Emita, came with the stand 'n filters and everything, said in the desc it's for streaming, podcasting, recording, acoustic music. I feel it might've been meant for gaming more than the rest, but as I said I am rather ignorant in the matter. The filtering is really good regardless, won't pick up anything but human voice, which for the busy environment I operate within is a blessing, best I had yet. Though it is also only now I that I am able to somewhat properly fund these endeavours. You'll hear in the next project, but I have no idea when that's gonna be...

[pr1mezer0]

I recorded some stoner metal, just guitar and a drum machine. If you don't have the time or inclination to listen to more than 1 track the best one is 'the answer is neither'.
https://soundcloud.com/prime-zero-82895054/sets/isntthatwhatitis?si=4e34bbb65ff846adb8967ace158e23a2&utm_source=clipboard&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=social_sharing