heydude6: any particular reason you chose to ask a game-unrelated meta question to a bunch of people, mostly inactives, rather than follow up some strand of analysis that already existed in the thread which the games you linked clearly indicated you are able to do?
Because there's more than one way to contribute to the game as town? Calling my meta-stuff game unrelated is a little unfair considering the fact that in my post I pointed out that scum have more power to create a narrative than usual. It was something I believe needed to be said because in the past when I played Secret Hitler, many of fellow players ignored this fact and as a result often lost. It doesn't matter if a few townies know truth if the rest of the town joins a bandwagon the scum started because it superficially looks more convincing, so I tried to inoculate against that.
At the time when I posted, I only saw 2 threads of questioning that were going anywhere: The case against
Fallacy of Urist and the case against
Iceytea.
That's a tiny amount of players to be worthy of analysis. Considering the fact that you admit to reading my previous games, you should know that in my first game I tunneled a fellow townie so hard that I got myself lynched. I didn't focus on finding other possible scum, and because the guy was innocent, the effort I did spend was a waste. My contribution to that game was overall anti-town.
This time, I thought it would be better if I could use my first post to put more players in the spotlight. As a matter of fact, that's what
you believe I should be trying to do considering the way you criticized fallacy.
More seriously, I'm going to get more information out of grilling a single player intensely than grilling many players lightly.
As for the hypothetical third option of 'grilling many players intensely', do you really think I have the brain space to write 20 questions for every player?
You could grill one player intensely and a bunch of players lightly.
Vector is town. That's a hypothetical. You have reason to believe vector is town. What do you do now? Start literally from scratch, or piggyback on an existing wagon you haven't actually contributed to? There are too many players and not enough hours in the Day1 for you to get a tight read on everyone in this way. You've played enough games to know this, you've played enough games with me in them to know this, I know you know I know you know this etc.
Do you plan to interact with someone besides the people who are going after you specifically for the very valid reason that you're not really doing very much at all to find scum?
The purpose of Day 1 in my opinion is not to lynch scum (since you're more likely than not going to lynch town anyway), but to get people talking and voting so you can use these actions and sayings as evidence for claims in future days. Excessively focusing on one person is antithetical to that goal for two reasons. One, that soup can only handle so many cooks, so other players won't feel the need to say much since once all that needs to be said has been. And two, you rob people of the ability to make a choice with their vote, since there's only one suspect. They can of course not vote, but the more real options you give a player, the more insight you receive from what they finally do choose. Consider this paragraph my own way of criticizing
Fallacy.
So of course I'm going to try to branch out and get more players talking. I mainly chose these players based off of how inexperienced they were (they were the main people who I wanted to receive my meta-stuff message), plus Fallacy cause I do still want to grill him a little. Their inactivity was merely a coincidence, but it would have been nice to break them out of that. My question is simple enough that them not responding has room to be interpreted as deliberate lurking.
Regardless of how that goes, my efforts have already bore fruit:
In a game of mafia where the town is doing badly, who is more likely to know what's going on and lead the town to victory:
The group of 4 people?
or
The group of 2 people?
What are the extenuating circumstances that lead to these answers changing?
I don't know wtf you're asking about. If you want me to answer something can you not ask me in riddles?
Compare his answer to yours. Both of you rejected my question, but
Jim just brushes it aside while you at least say something constructive in your response. I find it uncharacteristically flippant. It may not seem like much yet, but we may see it in a different light later on in the game.
Jim Groovestor. You may have had a point if you were the only person to respond to this question, but
4maskwolf and
Iceytea were both able understand the question and give good answers. Am I really supposed to believe a veteran who's been around since the first beginner game isn't capable of understanding a question other veterans can understand?
heydude: The insight about scum being able to use their numbers and knowledge to control the narrative is a good one, especially for a new player, but it's missing an important corollary: town far outnumber scum, and can use their numbers to close ranks and lock the scum out in the cold. The most townsided stomps I've been a part of (Paranormal 25 and 26) were partly the result of the town finding each other before the scum could get the mislynches they needed and systematically wiping out the outsiders. Mechanical methods certainly helped, but you have to be willing to extend a certain level of trust to win as town. Take a look at how webadict plays, not so much his D1s but the other days. A big part of what makes him successful at scumhunting and closing out games is that he's willing to extend trust to others, even if they haven't fully earned it, and work with them to eliminate the people he doesn't trust.
If there's a 4-person town core and it's not infiltrated by scum, the town isn't doing badly. If there's a town core of only 2 people and there isn't just 1 scum left, they definitely have their work cut out for them (assuming no protective power roles).
How important do you consider townhunting in comparison to scumhunting?
Iceytea. I'll be frank, I've never heard of the term, but the meaning seems obvious. I always just believed that finding town was a part of the scumhunting process. If you pressure someone to talk and they say townie things rather than scummy ones, then you'll have a better idea of who town is. It doesn't guarantee they're town, but saying scummy things doesn't guarantee they're scum either.
heydude6 do you play well under pressure?
notquitethere. I usually do something stupid when I get enough. Thankfully, real pressure only tends to develop when people act in a way that attracts it. I like to think that I've been a good townie so far.
If there was a mislynch that you voted with D1, how would you reevaluate your picks D2?
Toaster. Forgot this part when I wrote my first post. I'll answer this now. The mislynch is probably the most informative part of day 1. That's the time when you reflect on the reasons everyone made their choices and double-check to see if they made sense. As part of common sense, townies shouldn't join a bandwagon unless they fully understand and agree with the reasoning for the lynch. If a someone hops on the wagon without properly justifying themselves, then that makes them sus. You also have to be wary of the most passionate pushers of the vote. If the underlying reasoning ends up looking weak in hindsight, then they might just been pushing an agenda, and only non-towns should have an agenda.
It's also a good time to look at the other suspects and try to understand why they didn't get the vote instead. Who were their defenders? Were their arguments any good? Did they try to deflect away criticism by attacking the stronger candidate instead of addressing their own flaws?
Of course scum is all aware of this. You should expect some deliberate attempts by them to play with those expectations, but you need to know rules so you can spot when people are trying to break them.
Jim again!
I really don't have the patience for 120 hours of this.
Guys, please, help me hammer IcyTea31.
How about 600hrs?
Let's say that ICT actually was scummy at all. You really going to push for a hammer (on this theoretical probable scum) when one player hasn't posted at all, one basically hasn't posted and we need their replacement to finish arriving, and several others haven't had the time to get out of christmas and achieve a more significant engagement with the game?
Due to Christmas shenanigans I've been writing this post for a while, and now I see you post this. Are you trying to pass yourself off as a jester? Because I doubt you would be unaware of how anti-town that course of action would be.
Let's say that ICT actually was scummy at all. You really going to push for a hammer (on this theoretical probable scum) when one player hasn't posted at all, one basically hasn't posted and we need their replacement to finish arriving, and several others haven't had the time to get out of christmas and achieve a more significant engagement with the game?
Yes. I'm finding this Day 1 exhausting already and the sooner it ends the better.
And you double down. Do you really see no value in day 1?
Back to
Toaster. I don't see how being part of the mislynch will affect who I will suspect in day 2. It will have consequences for how people will perceive me, but I hope I have the skills to spot the scum regardless of whether I got involved or not.
Do you know something we don't?
I hope you realize how that can be seen as rolefishing.
IcyTea, IcyTea, IcyTea. Why did you reveal your nefarious plot now? Luckyowl hasn't even posted yet. Why should town listen to anything an unjustified self-voter has to say?
Because not listening to people is how one loses this game as town, and I have knowledge town doesn't have. It seems to me that the only reason you'd have no reason to listen to me is if I don't have knowledge that you don't as well.
I also don't think you're on the scumteam, because claiming a non-town alignment with this little pressure on you isn't generally to scum's advantage (this is where things start getting WIFOMy). Thanks for the clarification regarding that, by the way (in teal).
That teal part should be read as "I have knowledge town!Toony doesn't have". The piece of knowledge in question is "IcyTea31 is town" which only I and scum know for sure right now.
Iceytea again. That's frankly quite a clumsy backpedal. It does make sense within the context of your first post, enough for me to believe it was what you intended all along. But you risked a lot unnecessarily just so you could throw shade at
Toonyman. Deserved shade in my opinion, but I believe there was a way of sending that message without undermining the town's trust in you.
Not your best gambit in my opinion, but I understand it.
We should have some pretty good reads by the time this day 1 ends, I think.
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