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[hector13]

I was just trying to have fun.

I guess that’s not allowed.

[webadict]

I was just trying to have fun.

I guess that’s not allowed.

Sounds like a problem for people who are not me.

I see your fun comes at the expense of others, and you not only recognized that, but encouraged it.

[hector13]

I was just trying to have fun.

I guess that’s not allowed.

Sounds like a problem for people who are not me.

I see your fun comes at the expense of others, and you not only recognized that, but encouraged it.

Yes I am having a great time considering replacing out, how about you?

[ToonyMan]

@SHADOWdump:

ShadowDUMP, what kind of role do you think you added to the mix with your last minute jump in? What alignment?
NQT, what's the best way to be accidently nightkilled due to mod error to attract the night kill of the mafia? Should you play more passively as town if you have a powerful role?
Toaster, show me a picture of your face the exact moment you read your role-PM. If that isn't possible, how would you describe your facial muscles? Tense? Relaxed? Up? Down? Have you been visiting your doctor about it?

Toony:: Explain to me right now how this is not rolefishing. I see you backpedaling, get back over here.

When I'm thinking of RVS questions I like them to be game-related and they tend to have a motif as a consequence. In BYOR15 a lot of them had to do with survival. That's just how my brain works.

@SHADOWdump:

ShadowDUMP, what kind of role do you think you added to the mix with your last minute jump in? What alignment?

Sounds like the roles might have been jumbled? I'm betting multiple alterations, possible added mafia member or a third party added.

You're saying FoU changed every role just for one player last minute? Seems unlikely.
No possibility of an added town player?

Mild possibility? If pure vanilla town was a valid role I'd see that as easy to just shoehorn in, but as it stands he's making a point of all power roles here, so that would have a more significant impact on balance. My inclusion could very well have necessitated a complete reshaping of roles to such a degree that the safest bet might have been to add another third party or a mafia-ally. Webadicts claim of three mafia has me at less belief of an additional mafia now.
I of course am speaking from bullshitland as I have not truly hosted a mafia game and really don't know the intricacies of balancing. But I think I have a decent guess on how that works.

I understand, gotcha.

Caz, I'll save you some trouble. Though you were probably just joking, there are no jester type alignments.

How do you figure?

I can quote the OP for you. It's easy to miss so I don't blame you, but I strongly urge reading things carefully:

The only third party players that can appear in Mostly Vanilla Mafia 2 are Mafia-Ally, Survivor and Serial Killer.

@Hector:

Yes I am having a great time considering replacing out, how about you?

Don't do this to us please.

[webadict]

Yes I am having a great time considering replacing out, how about you?

When your play mimicks FallacyofUrist's in BYOR15, of course I'm gonna step in and say something. I see no problem with you having fun, but you're doing so by acting like a Jester, which sort of gets in the way of us trying to lynch scum here.

If you would like to commit to shenanigans, I would prefer that they entertain or catch scum. Consider garnishing your posts with salacious information, instead of an entire plate of it all at once. It appeases the pallette better, and it's less likely to cause food poisoning.

Or is your goal to be lynched? I mean, if you want to admit to it, I don't mind. I just like when people tell me the truth.

[ToonyMan]

@NQT:

Toony

NQT, what's the best way to attract the night kill of the mafia? Should you play more passively as town if you have a powerful role?

Mafia tend to kill players they don't think they can lynch or players they think will be a danger to them (doctors, vigs etc.), when they don't have any strong contenders like that, or they have good reason to think a doctor might protect their preferred target, they just go for low-info lynches and take out someone whose death doesn't help anyone. Playing too passively can put you in that latter camp. In a role-heavy game like this, it's best just play actively and spur other players to be active. Taking a backseat would be sacrificing the day game in the hope of ameliorating the worst of the night game, it's a losing strat. What do you reckon?

That's right. Town should be playing actively and encouraging people to engage, regardless of their ability.

[SHAD0Wdump]

Well damn. The highly specific third party options went right over my head.

 Well now I'm not all too certain what to think of hector, his play bothers the hell out of me and makes me highly inclined to think of him as scum trying to violently discourage interest by being obtuse. But with prior claims of considering replacement, that basically requires a pre-game strategy in the event he got a mafia role.

 I'm still suspicious, but more reserved.

 What else I'm concerned about however is the possibility of a Web/hector teamup here, with Web trying to bail out his team mate. He's actively working to shift attention from hector with plausible reasoning for doing so, but I think it's a bit early to let hector off the hook.

Webadict: Although you have given details as to why you are doing this, could you please elaborate more reason to stop pressing hector?

[hector13]

Being obtuse isn’t going to stop interest in me. Case in point: you’re still interested in me.

What about the interaction between webadict and I implies that he’s trying to bail me out? He’s essentially telling me to fuck off because I’m not doing it right, and I’m considering replacing out because I don’t like being told to fuck off because I’m not doing it right in a social game, not because of pre-game shit I said about replacing out if I roll scum. If he wanted to do that and we were scum, chances are it’s be done in the scum chat. I don’t think webadict would be interested in getting cheap town cred by doing it in thread.

[Luckyowl]

Sorry guys, I have to be precocious for our newbie players, here. I apologize for this long post:

Anyone want to break the bad news to Secretdorf, or should I?

If you're going to give me flak for keeping how I really feel about the game. Don't you think it's a bit hypocritical to do the same thing? SD is new to this forum and saying things like that. Might make SD feel like he done something wrong but with no feedback to make him better it'll make him feel worse. Of course I'm only projecting how I would feel and only assume this is what SD feel. For all I know he probably don't care. Still, if you think SD did something wrong then tell him. That's the expected responsibility I expect from a veteran like you.

I like to give opportunities to Townies to prove themselves by pointing out the flaw in both your and Secretdorf's logic/playstyle. I would never leave you guys hanging on the particulars, though. That would indeed be a failing on my part as a veteran.

First, let's start with the obvious counter:

The role sending is in progress.

This is more than two hours after I made that post. That's the easiest, and most obvious, counter to your logic.

But, here's the problem where it gets more insidious on why it's bad news for Secretdorf (and Luckyowl, by proxy): How do you know that I know the number of Mafia? This is where it gets WIFOMy, but points more towards the both of you being Mafia than towards me being Mafia. See, I have a good reason for knowing the number of Mafia: I've run more games than the both of you have played, combined. If I were to run this game, I'd have three Mafia. Thus, my intuitive guess is that there's three Mafia. You two, on the other hand, have no reason for knowing that there's three, other than by virtue of guessing.

Now, see, you'll notice that last point does point more to you being scum, but you'd have to remember something from earlier in order to fully cement at least one of you being scum, and that's this post:

So we don't have their number. We have 12 players. Do you think it's safe to assume there's 4 scum? Could there possibly 2 for extra paranoia?

This implies, of course, that Luckyowl also believes there's three Mafia likely, does it not? Note that Luckyowl specifically avoids mentioning three Mafia. In addition, Secretdorf also believes there's three:

3 if there's third party, otherwise I'll say 4.

The emphasis should surely be placed on the "otherwise" here, because I believe it infers a state of mind in Secretdorf towards there being three players.

So would not your words implicate you, Luckyowl and Secretdorf? Why so does Secretdorf defend Luckyowl? Why so does Luckyowl defend Secretdorf? This leads me to my questions for them:

@Luckyowl: I'll narrow down your suspects: me, hector13, or Secretdorf. Who should we lynch? Why? Put as much thought into it as you want to.
@Secretdorf: What about Luckyowl did you believe when you voted for me? What do you believe now? If you had to vote TricMagic, me, or Luckyowl, who would you vote?

What. Ok bullshit. Look, Web. This won't work at all. I'm glad you admit what you're saying WIFOM. But. Still if you had the experience to know who how many mafia they're are. Fine. That's all that needed to be said. But I'm sure you're smart enough to know that I posted what I say according to this....

Old man fallacy's ghost: Can we know how many mafia there are?

The infiltrators left evidence of their presence and malice, but no evidence of their numbers.

...or maybe you didn't read the post. So I'll answer your question. I think you're scum for the garbage you just posted.

[Luckyowl]

This really came across twisting words and trying to make me look scummy. Even when I had a good reason to say what I posted. Web, you're really ticking my scum reader. All that unnecessary words when you could've just said. "I guess 3, because if I ran a game of 12 there will be 3." And why even suspected SD? When he was the one who ask how many mafia there were?! Like..cmon...

[webadict]

Webadict: Although you have given details as to why you are doing this, could you please elaborate more reason to stop pressing hector?

Two reasons: One, I think hector13 has a chance to improve, and I think pushing them on it only negates the point I'm trying to make, which is that arguing about someone's playstyle pulls focus from the Town. And two, Luckyowl has done nothing to convince me that they shouldn't be lynched.

What about the interaction between webadict and I implies that he’s trying to bail me out? He’s essentially telling me to fuck off because I’m not doing it right, and I’m considering replacing out because I don’t like being told to fuck off because I’m not doing it right in a social game, not because of pre-game shit I said about replacing out if I roll scum. If he wanted to do that and we were scum, chances are it’s be done in the scum chat. I don’t think webadict would be interested in getting cheap town cred by doing it in thread.

Same boat here. There'd be no point in making a connection in-thread that could be used to tie myself back to hector13 if I know they're scum. That's just... too ostentatious for my blood.

PPE: Oh look, here's Luckyowl.

This really came across twisting words and trying to make me look scummy. Even when I had a good reason to say what I posted. Web, you're really ticking my scum reader. All that unnecessary words when you could've just said. "I guess 3, because if I ran a game of 12 there will be 3." And why even suspected SD? When he was the one who ask how many mafia there were?! Like..cmon...

You're the one that started trying to frame me for knowing the number of scum. But, that's a hard charge because it relies on you knowing the number of scum. I have a duty to establish modus operandi.

It's not my duty to give you the benefit of the doubt. You kinda have to earn it. I'm not entirely sure what your charge is here, but I'd be willing to wait for something, if you think I'm actually scum.

Also, you didn't answer the question. Is the answer me?

[SHAD0Wdump]

What about the interaction between webadict and I implies that he’s trying to bail me out? He’s essentially telling me to fuck off because I’m not doing it right, and I’m considering replacing out because I don’t like being told to fuck off because I’m not doing it right in a social game, not because of pre-game shit I said about replacing out if I roll scum. If he wanted to do that and we were scum, chances are it’s be done in the scum chat. I don’t think webadict would be interested in getting cheap town cred by doing it in thread.

I think he's trying to tell everyone to fuck off. Which again is useful in the sense of trying to work on reads elsewhere, but suspicious to me because your still a viable target for avoiding questioning.

I'm going to throw another thing at you Webadict. Why are you not attacking others some more if you think we are wasting time?

[webadict]

I think he's trying to tell everyone to fuck off. Which again is useful in the sense of trying to work on reads elsewhere, but suspicious to me because your still a viable target for avoiding questioning.

I'm going to throw another thing at you Webadict. Why are you not attacking others some more if you think we are wasting time?

Because only hector13 was wasting time? I don't understand the question. Are you saying other people are wasting time? Who?

[SHAD0Wdump]

snipp'd

This post is laying out that we need to stop our focus on hector, but during all of this there's not much scumhunting going on in concert, so why not?

[hector13]

Again, feeling as though you were told to fuck off hasn’t made you fuck off, and webadict savvy enough to get people to fuck off in more subtle ways than telling them to fuck off.

You have an odd combination of reading far too much into things and not reading enough into things. I’m not sure if this is scum!SHADOW trying to look like they’re doing something useful in a quiet point for town.

You’re still voting Vector while entertaining the possibility of a hector/webadict scumteam, and frankly my argument against it is WIFOM. Why aren’t you voting either of us, preferring to maintain your RVS vote?