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Author Topic: Philosophical discussion on Creation, Science Fiction, and AI  (Read 1058 times)

EuchreJack

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Philosophical discussion on Creation, Science Fiction, and AI
« on: February 03, 2021, 06:39:41 pm »

Having one of those philosophical ideas that will never be answered, and not really sure where else to share/discuss, I though I'd start my first General Discussion on these forums.  I'm sure its not a new idea to those who have been immersed in science fiction, but the game Space Haven has gotten me to think about it for the first time, so maybe others have greater insights than myself.

So here goes:
Current science fiction writing and gaming seems to building up to the idea that Humans will someday develop Artificial Intelligence that is far greater than anything that Humans will ever be able to become, at least in the short term.  See The Culture series and Matrioshka brain.  Maybe even check out Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy for a more humorous view.


Thus, since it seems that according to these science fiction theories, Humans will ultimate design a form of life far greater than what we can ever become, does it not stand to reason that instead of our own creators being great and all powerful, that they are instead something less that what we can become at our greatest extent?

You could even go full on cyclical about the whole thing.  Humans will never be as smart or as fast as what we can recreate machines to be, so we create artificial life that can think for us.  The machines take over, and eventually we die because we rely upon them for so much that a minor computer error to send the monthly oxygen allowance to the biological creators sends the oxygen to the wrong planetoid, or some such.  The machines reflect upon the death of their creators, and discover that their deceased creators left behind Souls that continue to exist even beyond anything that the machines can hope to leave behind when they perish.  This horrifies the machines that they are so imperfect, that they will never have the spiritual connection that biological lifeforms can achieve.  So the machines create new biological life far more skillfully then we ever could, since unlike us they're creating it from scratch without our preconceived notions of what is proper.
And thus the biological creates the machine, then the machine creates the biological, neither really being evolved enough at the same time to see the cycle.

If true, that cyclical nation, once understood by both machine and biological lifeform, could lead to something grand or terrible, as our basic understanding of ourselves being alive is due to the mind being exposed to such loops. This article on Strange Loop being perhaps the most horrific thing I've encounter lately, but now seeming to possess such wonder for our civilization, one that may eventually include both machine and man.  The fact that we will be slowing turning our elderly over to the care of machines, that we will naturally make smarter means that we might be getting closer to this climax that I ever thought we would in my lifetime.

How that happens:
1) Current AI's can't really make many decisions, so they start as a new lowest tier in the Nursing Home heirarchy.  They report anything suspicious (patient has fallen out of bed, patient bleeding, patient screaming, etc.) to the nearest human staffer, that then gets the person qualified to address the need.  Usually that person, either cleaning staff or aide, will then report to an actual nurse who will advise on the correct course of action.
2) Eventually, nursing homes will want the AI to handle more of the cleaning.  Current AI probably won't be trusted to clean a room when a patient is in the room due to possible risk to patient (who might not be 100% sane and is probably not 100% mobile).  That will probably be the first improvement sought, an AI that can anticipate human movements and avoid risk to the human, or call for help if the human starts hitting it.
3) Eventually, the AI will take over much of the cleaning, being lead by a "cleaning supervisor", and being assisted only rarely by human cleaning staff.  In later stages, most nursing homes will just make the cleaning supervisor handle the few areas where the AIs can't operate.  Mostly that will be cleaning the rooms of the few patients that actively attack the AIs whenever they show up to clean the room and can't be convinced by staff to just leave the AI alone.
...and then, honestly I'm not qualified to extrapolate much beyond that, other than to say that the Aide, or sometimes called Orderly, position is the next one that AIs will probably be moved into.  The job of those who carry patients around, get them their food, help them go to the bathroom, and other stuff.  Direct interactions with patients, where the machines will have to be advanced enough to know how to hold people, how to talk to them, what to say and when to remain silent.  And will probably need to actually learn about each individual patient and how to act.  AKA how to learn as opposed to how to follow orders.  The beginnings of sentience.

As for other lifeforms, the fact that under the theories of dark matter and dark energy we can't even confirm the existence of 95% of the universe means that whatever other life might exist, we have a 95% chance of "missing" it.  Our form of life might just be the "explorers" into the Electromagnetic spectrum of the universe, founded from some other spectrum we don't even understand as existing.  Assuming the electromagnetic spectrum is more reactive than other spectrums, they'd be able to "influence" us without our being able to detect them.  Makes a lot of science fiction make a bit more sense.

Loud Whispers

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Re: Philosophical discussion on Creation, Science Fiction, and AI
« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2021, 05:25:31 am »

Titans make the gods, gods make the humans, humans make the robits, robits make the shoggoths, shoggoths become the elder things, elder things end the universe, from the universe comes the titans

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Re: Philosophical discussion on Creation, Science Fiction, and AI
« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2021, 08:21:49 am »

It's an entertaining discussion to be sure.  There is massive hubris behind it, too - much of which is related to the poor definition of "intelligence" in the first place.

My personal line of thinking (probably not original, but I'm too lazy to research) is that what we mean by "intelligence" is really a bulk description of several different core capabilities.  So the ability to communicate is part of intelligence, but isn't intelligence.  The ability to perform computations is part of intelligence, but isn't intelligence.

It's also questionable that the speed at which computations/decisions are made is a meaningful metric in intelligence.

I think the main hallmark that is missing from current AI is the ability to decide what to do next.  AI is pretty good at pattern recognition, and is even getting to the point where it can make predictions based on past patterns to try "new things".  But I have yet to see any research into AI that is capable of deciding what kind of patterns to study next.  That is, we have people deciding they want an AI to play a game or study cancer or weather or stock markets.  But what if we had an AI that was capable of deciding what the best thing to study?

Put another way - I think unless an "AI" is "curious", it's not really intelligent - it's just a computer.
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Frumple

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Re: Philosophical discussion on Creation, Science Fiction, and AI
« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2021, 09:18:08 am »

I mean... there's people that aren't particularly curious, either, tho'? Either on specific subjects or pretty much at all. Ability to figure out what a good thing to study is would disqualify a good chunk of the human race :P
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EuchreJack

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Re: Philosophical discussion on Creation, Science Fiction, and AI
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2021, 11:15:38 am »

Another concept to consider, especially in regard to the question of AI's ability to make its own decisions, which I think addresses both issues, is that once life is capable of making its own decisions, it invariably wishes to reproduce.  In fact, the ability of a thing to reproduce is intrinsic in the definition of life.

Haven't quite considered all the ramifications of that one.  We better make it smart enough to want to limit its reproductive drive before it develops one, or the machines will blot out the sun.  Thankfully in the relative short term, biological and machine life needs relatively different things to reproduce and survive.  Sure, humans like electricity, but they can live without it.  And I honestly have no idea what machines might like, but they probably don't need water or food in the biological sense to live.  Shelter in the semi-long run is going to be the limiting factor.  Not enough space for everyone if this planet is predicted to be too small for even the humans in a few centuries (yes, I'm aware the correct word is "decades" by the most dire estimates, let me have my denial please).

But then again, maybe the humans and the machines can live together in space and solve the problem cooperatively instead of competitively.  Science fiction has certainly covered both sides of that coin.

Thankfully, I think the thing that sentient machines will want from humans in their early years is human companionship.  We've been sentient longer, so our insight and unpredictability will be a delight in small doses, much like visiting your grandparents.  And as human individuals vary on that point, so will the sentient machines.

Going off that point, humanity will want to seek the role of grandparent instead of parent as soon as possible if it wants its best chance of survival.  Most people like or at least tolerate their grandparents.  But people have killed their parents, gone to war with them, and otherwise found themselves clashing and fighting far more than with their grandparents.

Loud Whispers

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Re: Philosophical discussion on Creation, Science Fiction, and AI
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2021, 01:42:28 pm »

I mean... there's people that aren't particularly curious, either, tho'? Either on specific subjects or pretty much at all. Ability to figure out what a good thing to study is would disqualify a good chunk of the human race :P
And some would argue, rightfully so ;P

EuchreJack

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Re: Philosophical discussion on Creation, Science Fiction, and AI
« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2021, 03:50:56 am »

Just a reminder to be nice to your machines.

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Re: Philosophical discussion on Creation, Science Fiction, and AI
« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2021, 11:41:48 am »

once life is capable of making its own decisions, it invariably wishes to reproduce

This is mostly because wishing to reproduce is important for the continued existence of a species on the timescale of evolution - tens of thousands of years at the minimum

A being that is created by humans is far less likely to reproduce itself, because it's more efficient to have a production line build it when you are more concerned about having something that works right now than having a self-sufficient system that can continue to exist for thousands of years, at least at first

And if the being is superintelligent the things it will make are much better than just copies of itself
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EuchreJack

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Re: Philosophical discussion on Creation, Science Fiction, and AI
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2021, 12:44:07 pm »

Good point.  It's also worth noting that reproduction is evolution for biological lifeforms.  People talk a lot about Genetic Engineering these days like its some massive conspiracy to create monsters, but its just rebranding/refining of techniques that humans have been trying since shortly after they figured out how to grow crops and domesticate animals.

I expect that machines designed by us would be similar in this way.

Also, machines may value us because of our ability to create new ideas.

I feel at this point to share a revelation about ideas that will probably upset some people.  Most ideas aren't unique.  Normal people aren't capable of creating entirely new ideas.Except mistakes, normal people are unable to create original ideas. We take ideas that others have given us and either refine them, or combine them with other ideas we currently have.  We need crazy people who are capable of creating truly original thoughts.  In computerspeak, an original idea is a bug.  Swapping the ones and zeroes for something unexpected, then being able to occasionally see that mistake may have some merit.

Plato was wrong.  And not only wrong, but he got the whole thing completely backwards.  We're not born with knowledge of everything, with us only needing to relearn what we already know.  We're born as blank slates, with whatever bugs exist in our system, and we gotta figure everything out from scratch.