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[Tachytaenius]

So... apparently, you won't be able to get wagons if you don't have a LAND_HOLDER position in your fortress.
Trouble is, I really don't want to have any nobility in my custom civ. They're supposed to be egalitarian and all that.

There are two solutions that I'm aware of at the moment:
- Add a LAND_HOLDER position stripped of as much meaning and gameplay as possible.
- Forgoing wagons and making the sentients be PACK_ANIMAL and have a TRADE_CAPACITY (thanks Rumrusher for the idea) lol

Highly theoretical DFHack madness that might not even be possible is absolutely welcome. I thrive on that, lol. Help me solve this!

[FantasticDorf]

Well you can't get around it, without committing totally to the elf-hippie no treekill lifestyle because of the implication that wagons are unethical to them.

Id suggest going foward with no-nobility as you were, just bringing super-high capacity pack animals, you can assign to the civ with [ANIMAL] otherwise and forbid the jobs from all other animals who would be able to do similar pack-hauling tasks by selecting them but explicitly overriding [ANIMAL_NEVER_PACK_ANIMAL].

[joostheger]

You could also make the land-holder a type of egalitarian title. Like 'Trade overseer', or 'grand bureaucrat'. To my opinion, the properties making the landholder a 'noble' has more to do with their requirements for expensive rooms and stuff, and the fact that their tiltle is hereditary.
So, you can make the landholder ELECTED, or whats more interesting, SUCCEEDED_BY:local title. (Yes, it works). So like a regional trade overseer which is succeeded by the local Trader.

Their are other 'functions' that your sic needs to survive, like managers, traders, war-goal-ers, diplomats. You still need them, but you can make them democratic, by using the tag ELECTED. Thus, a cool thing you can do, is take a local responsibility, like MANAGER or LAW_ENFORCEMENT, and tie it only to the landholders-title. In practice this means that you cannot perform this responsibility, until you got the land-holder. Your story could be, that every settlement has to gain the rights for that title.

Other alternative meanings for an egalitarian land-holder:
* Judge
* Production Coordinator
* Regional administrator
* Hight priest
* Chosen Hero
*

or ask chatgpt

[Tachytaenius]

You could also make the land-holder a type of egalitarian title. Like 'Trade overseer', or 'grand bureaucrat'. To my opinion, the properties making the landholder a 'noble' has more to do with their requirements for expensive rooms and stuff, and the fact that their tiltle is hereditary.
So, you can make the landholder ELECTED, or whats more interesting, SUCCEEDED_BY:local title. (Yes, it works). So like a regional trade overseer which is succeeded by the local Trader.

Their are other 'functions' that your sic needs to survive, like managers, traders, war-goal-ers, diplomats. You still need them, but you can make them democratic, by using the tag ELECTED. Thus, a cool thing you can do, is take a local responsibility, like MANAGER or LAW_ENFORCEMENT, and tie it only to the landholders-title. In practice this means that you cannot perform this responsibility, until you got the land-holder. Your story could be, that every settlement has to gain the rights for that title.

Other alternative meanings for an egalitarian land-holder:
* Judge
* Production Coordinator
* Regional administrator
* Hight priest
* Chosen Hero
*

or ask chatgpt

Much appreciated! I had no idea you could make a land holder by electable. Everything I read seemed to point to that not being possible.
Can you explain a little more about the succession thing? Do you mean that when the land holder dies, a local will take their place?

[joostheger]

Sure! A few notes.

1. I wrote this and i recommend it to study, if you're interested in modding not-so common goverment-forms: https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/Advanced_Entity_Position_Mechanics
2. The election in combination of landholders doesn't really do a thing. It all still works the same. It's only for flavor that you can do that.
3. Election does work however in site positions. This means that you are able to make the successor of the landholder elected.
4. The successionrules kick in when the position becomes empty, for example when the current holder of that position dies. But can also be triggered when he or she looses the job by other reasons. See the article mentioned above.
5. if you refer to a position in the succession rule, it works as long as that positionholder is present in your location.

Here is a small example of what might work for you.

Code: [Select]

[POSITION:TRADE_OVERSEER]
[NAME:trade overseer:trade overseers]
[LAND_HOLDER:1]
[LAND_NAME:Regional tradehub]
[SUCCESSION:BY_POSITION:LOCAL_ELECTED_TRADER]
[NUMBER:AS_NEEDED]
[RESPONSIBILITY:ESTABLISH_COLONY_TRADE_AGREEMENTS] <-- optional
...

[POSITION:LOCAL_ELECTED_TRADER]
[SITE]
[RESPONSIBILITY:TRADE]
[ELECTED]
[NAME:trader:traders]
...


There's all sort of cool stuf you can add to the mix. maby the trade overseer is able to appoint additional traders.
An alternative to the emphasis on trading: you can use the responsibilities for accounting, manager, meet_workers, lawenforcement to work around your narative.

What kind of egalitarion do you actually mean? like democratic, republican or more anarchistic?
Also a funny idea: You can call the landholder 'wagon handler' :-). Because you really do need someone able to handle the wagons before they dare to visit your fortress.

[joostheger]

I just re-read my own notes. it says that landholder succesion by a local title only works in world-gen and not in fortress mode. Thats not how i remembered, so it might be worth a try.