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[Krr1ss]

[A being which has never been looks down at a man without a cap.]

Jim Groovester

A little too late for rvs, don't you think?

I did confirm with host that this game has 24/7 mafia chat.

Does this site has a culture or tutoring? Like you think every response from mafia would be a well discussed one or do people not tend to be that try hard here?

24/7 mafia chats always give me that paranoia...

You'll be surprised at the lack of long term planning in mafia chat when you roll mafia in bay12forum.
Also, have you answered my question here?:

NQT for looking like they are fishing for roles!

Though fishing for roles doesn't really matter in a game where everyone is PR.

Hold on, I'm not actually seeing evidence of role fishing. Can you please point me to signs of role fishing?

Agentt, Kitten, Crystal are probably not all scum. I refuse to believe that they would all powerwolf so openly.

I'm not familiar with the term. What does it mean?

How many games do you have?

Powerwolfing is wolves forming their own town core and defending each other, basically forcefully controlling the thread.

[Crystalizedmire]

-snip-

Agentt, Kitten, Crystal are probably not all scum. I refuse to believe that they would all powerwolf so openly.

I'm not familiar with the term. What does it mean?

How many games do you have?

Powerwolfing is wolves forming their own town core and defending each other, basically forcefully controlling the thread.

About 16 games. I don't think the term was mentioned very often or else I would've gained an understanding of the term based on the context.

Salvatore might be deadweight but I'm not sure if they're a good day elim since we can't find their remaining mafia members due to their lurking.

This kind of threw me off.

Why would somebody you think is scum not be a good lynch? Do you think Salvatore Monday is scum?

I'm not sure if Salvatore Monday is scum or not. But I have two reasons why I want them alive for day2:
1. If they are mafia and we eliminate them, then it'll mean that we gained less information from their flip than any other flip.
2. I want to see more of their play before we eliminate them. I've played with them once and they barely talked in that one so I want to see them talk in day2.

[Jim Groovester]

Think what you want about me, but I'm going to be really stubborn on the EuchreJack and Magma Mater issue. It's one of the only actual pieces of evidence that we have on day 1, and the night game's complexity could be lessened if we got it over with and investigated Magma first thing instead of avoiding it till we have no choice.
As someone (I forgot who) said, this is a perfect excuse for the mafia to not get read, and the extra complexity with the bussing sounds like it was hastily added in to make it seem plausible.

I said you were off base because there is a reason why Magma Mater would make that claim early on D1 as scum but it's most likely not the conclusion you reached. If Magma Mater is scum, I doubt the bussing even belongs to him, and instead more likely belongs to another scum team member, and the proactive claim is to provide cover for his team's night actions once the night starts becoming impossible to sort out.

You have to also acknowledge that there is a town reason for why Magma Mater made the claim early in D1, and you have to evaluate which explanation seems more likely.

For myself, I see there is rationale for the claim from both the town and scum perspective, so I can't draw any conclusions about Magma Mater from the claim.

So are you going for hat tyrant?

Why, I'd never play to the most fun win condition, not ever.

I am feeling sick today. Ugh.

HANG IN THERE BUDDY

I'm not sure if Salvatore Monday is scum or not. But I have two reasons why I want them alive for day2:
1. If they are mafia and we eliminate them, then it'll mean that we gained less information from their flip than any other flip.
2. I want to see more of their play before we eliminate them. I've played with them once and they barely talked in that one so I want to see them talk in day2.

Neither of these are particularly good reasons.

I believe Salvatore Monday is choosing to post like this, either because he's a dillweed or he has some sort of voluntary post restriction as part of his role that probably gives him some absolutely inconsequential bonus and it would most likely be in his and his team's best interest to stop chasing that. So giving him leniency is silly from that perspective.

The first point is silly because believing that town can choose a more informative lynch over the most evident one is not likely to happen.

[Magma Mater]

Canadian seemed the most towny to me, weird

Yeah that is weird. Why did you read him as town?

Not Krr1ss but TCK's 3 posts are fine to pretty good. I remembered them as being better than what they were but there's nothing scummy about them. TCK has a good question in his first post, his second post was meh, and his third post is fine and a truthful response. He tends to activelurk so I didn't read into his behaviour that much.
Why do you read them as scum? I assume it's the third post that you found suspicious otherwise you would've voted him before.

Canadian kitten has twice written posts from a mafia perspective:
1) He is unable to see the benefit to me claiming my role. From his point of view, it would be a good way to mess up mafia (his) actions. The way I see it, his opinion is that I've misplayed by revealing too much to him too early. He told me that he thought I had misplayed, but wasn't able to justify that belief when challenged (because he can't reveal that he knows I'm town).
2) Isn't able to tell that EuchreJack's attack on him is terrible, because he knows that EuchreJack is town. From his perspective, a town who attacks a mafia must have valid reasoning behind it, so EuchreJack's attack on him must be valid.

Pfp
Man, i am really going to disappoint you if you're actually town
For point #2 though, is the theoretical correct town response to EJ accusation be that I am suppose to put in equal effort of explaining my reasoning? Call it terrible, invalid, needs to be done better? I really don't see what is the appropriate response to an attack I saw that simply needed clarification to my reasoning. If that makes sense?

The appropriate response would have been to tell EuchreJack that his post doesn't make sense, that "lying is bad" and "claiming too soon is bad" are not inconsistent thoughts.

[Imp]

Hello Imp.

You aren't being scary yet which kinda makes me suspect you are trying to pocket me...

It's a wild bias to say you are scary hence you are mafia and you aren't being scary hence you are mafia.

But yes, thank you for the consideration. I shall depend on host mainly for my anxiety.

As for your help umm..
o.o
I guess I'll ask you the same question that was asked of me,

How are you as a mafia?

Spoiler: I never said I was scary, and other alignment-behavior stuff (click to show/hide)

I don't currently have a role that guides me to scare others, and I don't love others' fear; I'd rather others scare me than me scare others (I enjoy my own fear responses, and what those usually immediately turn into).

I believe I understand why people might consider me scary; I think a lot and do whatever makes sense to me at the time based on all I know - and I'm quite neuroatypical, so I may come up with effective plans that others wouldn't necessarily think of or see as valuable.  I explain what I'm doing more than I already did only if it makes sense to me (like, if my plan is likely to be harmed if I discuss something that doesn't have to be discussed to work, I won't because anti-town are also listening; if I must discuss I do like with Verm this game), and it can be nearly impossible to change my mind or plans without facts that I accept.  I'm also an iconoclast; the popular and widely recognized 'it is always done this way' and 'this is the best way to do this' usually only tempt me when I'm a novice; otherwise I evaluate those against all else I know and rarely do 'normal stuff' (but gladly will if I agree it's the right answer this time or if it 'feels right' to me this time).

I tend towards teamwork where possible as any alignment - I don't know who the other pro-town are, but I know they outnumber the anti-town.  Most of the players in this game are my allies, just they (almost certainly) don't know I am their ally and I don't know they are - but we have the same or compatible wincons, we are allies.  The game would be over if that wasn't true (except near some endgames, where some special power in pro-town hands keeps the game going despite pro-town being outnumbered).  So, I'm surrounded by under-/un-informed allies; my job's to try and pick out who isn't compatible with my wincon.  My job isn't to be scary or hostile; it's on each other person to decide if I'm 'scary' or not.

But I am skilled; this should delight those who share my wincon and of course could concern those who don't.  My steady movement towards a town wincon will be clear all game; I don't think that's scary (It's okay if others do, and I have leaned very hard on some town some games, unsure if they were town but needing specific behavior from them or else my plans would fail; one delightful game as town the lie-based plan was so good, between myself and several town (but I was forcing the key townie at that point to stand strong or die to elim that day, so you can die at night to maf or you can die today to elim you lying maf, that the real remaining maf chose not to attempt a night kill, believing any attempt to kill would get them revealed).

No interest in 'pocketing' anyone - that's sideways to my playstyle.

As maf, I finally started winning often when teamed maf... since I started winning as maf, every game that I've been maf in has either been canceled early or seen a strong maf win.  That's surely luck, we're talking 3 games (I was just maf again in an off-B12 game, Chess mafia, that Krr1ss and Agentt join us from; I used Mater's 'I am your God-Mod' influence over me to decide to follow him there (and he's Urist there).

So.  I play to my wincon, whatever that is, as best as I can.  That's how I am as maf or any other alignment.

Imp I don't want any modifiers. Use it on someone else, kay?

Noted!

Spoiler: Also, re the terms and stuff, like 'powerwolfing' (click to show/hide)

- you may remember me mentioning to you that B12 is very homebrew.  Some of us have never played outside of B12 (this was me before last year's champs as well).  We have our own culture here, our own rulesets and standards, terms and common patterns and all else.

Some of us have played on sites connected to mainstream mafia, many of us haven't.

We don't even have an OGI rule - we have our own variant that requests us not to have private discussions with each other while we're both in a game.  We can and do use some forms of what you'd call 'angle shooting' (we don't even have the term here) as part of how we play and strategize.  But you may see one of us point out that another player's active on other parts of B12 and not here, so I'm voting them for that reason.  We can even discuss replacements to some extent and recommend someone request a replacement; we can discuss the pre-replacement playstyle and the post-replacement playstyle and continue to play using that info and evaluations.

We use the term scum without concern (not an insult) but call someone here a wolf and they won't necessarily think you're calling them mafia.

[Magma Mater]

Canadian seemed the most towny to me, weird

Yeah that is weird. Why did you read him as town?

Not Krr1ss but TCK's 3 posts are fine to pretty good. I remembered them as being better than what they were but there's nothing scummy about them. TCK has a good question in his first post, his second post was meh, and his third post is fine and a truthful response. He tends to activelurk so I didn't read into his behaviour that much.
Why do you read them as scum? I assume it's the third post that you found suspicious otherwise you would've voted him before.

Canadian kitten has twice written posts from a mafia perspective:
1) He is unable to see the benefit to me claiming my role. From his point of view, it would be a good way to mess up mafia (his) actions. The way I see it, his opinion is that I've misplayed by revealing too much to him too early. He told me that he thought I had misplayed, but wasn't able to justify that belief when challenged (because he can't reveal that he knows I'm town).
2) Isn't able to tell that EuchreJack's attack on him is terrible, because he knows that EuchreJack is town. From his perspective, a town who attacks a mafia must have valid reasoning behind it, so EuchreJack's attack on him must be valid.

Omg! Urist! You are my damn teacher! The last game I played, I made the same read as your 2). Granted, it was wrong, but I still believe that the logic behind it is awesome! Wanna see the post? Lemme find it.

https://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewtopic.php?t=2659&start=400#p1126334

Oh, you joined a game on the syndicate! Nice, they're pretty good there, if you're looking to learn then you'll learn a lot from them. Too bad it was a game of Assassins, which I deliberately didn't join because the optimal strat is to not talk at all.
It is a good point. In essence, perspective is the only thing separating town from mafia. The difficult part is figuring out whether someone has a weird perspective because they're mafia, or just because they're weird. 

---

As a side note, I haven't heard "dillweed" in over 20 years, really hope we can bring this back into the vernacular because it's a top-tier word.

[Krr1ss]

Spoiler: Also, re the terms and stuff, like 'powerwolfing' (click to show/hide)

- you may remember me mentioning to you that B12 is very homebrew.  Some of us have never played outside of B12 (this was me before last year's champs as well).  We have our own culture here, our own rulesets and standards, terms and common patterns and all else.

Some of us have played on sites connected to mainstream mafia, many of us haven't.

We don't even have an OGI rule - we have our own variant that requests us not to have private discussions with each other while we're both in a game.  We can and do use some forms of what you'd call 'angle shooting' (we don't even have the term here) as part of how we play and strategize.  But you may see one of us point out that another player's active on other parts of B12 and not here, so I'm voting them for that reason.  We can even discuss replacements to some extent and recommend someone request a replacement; we can discuss the pre-replacement playstyle and the post-replacement playstyle and continue to play using that info and evaluations.

We use the term scum without concern (not an insult) but call someone here a wolf and they won't necessarily think you're calling them mafia.

Noted! I'll be sure to use that to the full capacity with Fallacy's permission then.

[Krr1ss]

Canadian seemed the most towny to me, weird

Yeah that is weird. Why did you read him as town?

Not Krr1ss but TCK's 3 posts are fine to pretty good. I remembered them as being better than what they were but there's nothing scummy about them. TCK has a good question in his first post, his second post was meh, and his third post is fine and a truthful response. He tends to activelurk so I didn't read into his behaviour that much.
Why do you read them as scum? I assume it's the third post that you found suspicious otherwise you would've voted him before.

Canadian kitten has twice written posts from a mafia perspective:
1) He is unable to see the benefit to me claiming my role. From his point of view, it would be a good way to mess up mafia (his) actions. The way I see it, his opinion is that I've misplayed by revealing too much to him too early. He told me that he thought I had misplayed, but wasn't able to justify that belief when challenged (because he can't reveal that he knows I'm town).
2) Isn't able to tell that EuchreJack's attack on him is terrible, because he knows that EuchreJack is town. From his perspective, a town who attacks a mafia must have valid reasoning behind it, so EuchreJack's attack on him must be valid.

Omg! Urist! You are my damn teacher! The last game I played, I made the same read as your 2). Granted, it was wrong, but I still believe that the logic behind it is awesome! Wanna see the post? Lemme find it.

https://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewtopic.php?t=2659&start=400#p1126334

Oh, you joined a game on the syndicate! Nice, they're pretty good there, if you're looking to learn then you'll learn a lot from them. Too bad it was a game of Assassins, which I deliberately didn't join because the optimal strat is to not talk at all.
It is a good point. In essence, perspective is the only thing separating town from mafia. The difficult part is figuring out whether someone has a weird perspective because they're mafia, or just because they're weird. 

---

As a side note, I haven't heard "dillweed" in over 20 years, really hope we can bring this back into the vernacular because it's a top-tier word.

Unfortunately that read was bad and the person was town :/
Also, I learnt that Assasins in the Palace is definitely not my style as uhh, I'd rather play lottery.

[ToonyMan]

Oh there's a mason chat, I didn't catch that the first time. I bet one player is scum between Tric, Vermilion, Cat, and Agentt.

Magma makes my brain feel good I hope they are town so they can carry.

Magma make me feel Jack bad. Magma make me feel Crystal bad. Magma don't really make me feel Cat bad.

Jim feel good now they post. Jim probably desire hats. Me hat- I mean my hat implies things but I don't want to add unnecessary details to clutter the thread when it doesn't mean these threats actually exist.

Toastercultist make big newbie post. They big newb but are they evil like Tric and Jack? Me no thinks.

[ToonyMan]

I'm gonna try to put all my reads down in a coherent list later today when I'm not busy. Maybe I'll vote a bad guy too.

[Salvatore Monday]

I bet one player is scum between Tric, Vermilion, Cat, and Agentt.

Magma make me feel Jack bad. Magma make me feel Crystal bad. Magma don't really make me feel Cat bad.

Jim feel good now they post. Jim probably desire hats.

[A being which has never been nods in general agreement.]

[TricMagic]

May have been sick this morning but what anti-dragon propogenda you sporting Toony?

[Magma Mater]

Magma makes my brain feel good I hope they are town so they can carry.

Magma make me feel Jack bad. Magma make me feel Crystal bad. Magma don't really make me feel Cat bad.

Me no thinks.

I can't tell whether you're giving me imperatives or expressing your own thoughts neolithically.

[EuchreJack]

I'm gonna vote TheCanadianKitten

Additional to Magma's criticisms: TheCanadianKitten seemed OK with being attacked. Most town players are giant babies that throw tantrums and immediately vote anyone that attacks them. I should know...

Also, I had some dental work done today, and the novacaine is wearing out. I might not be contributing much more today. Owuee

[ToonyMan]

I bet one player is scum between Tric, Vermilion, Cat, and Agentt.

Magma make me feel Jack bad. Magma make me feel Crystal bad. Magma don't really make me feel Cat bad.

Jim feel good now they post. Jim probably desire hats.

[A being which has never been nods in general agreement.]

Me scrunch nose, bad gas from lasagna maybe pass by with approval?

May have been sick this morning but what anti-dragon propogenda you sporting Toony?

Tric.

You will always be the enemy in this game.

Magma makes my brain feel good I hope they are town so they can carry.

Magma make me feel Jack bad. Magma make me feel Crystal bad. Magma don't really make me feel Cat bad.

Me no thinks.

I can't tell whether you're giving me imperatives or expressing your own thoughts neolithically.

I think lots, but hard to control self. I do best, control self. Make simple.