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For !

Against !

[Timst]

The issue

Tunnelers units (ie. creatures that can dig, mainly in order to invade your fortress) has been one of the most debated suggestion ever : Again recently, there's been another argument over that in this topic.
Each time, there's people for, and people against, and in the end there's never a clear consensus on this topic.
I think that with a poll, we'll know if players want or do not want this feature to be implemented.

Short lists of the pros (+) & cons (-) of the tunnelers :

+ Will make siege harder, because right now, a simple locked door can break most sieges ; add a moat and all siegers will be stymied.
- Maybe a little to hard, because there will be no way to stop intruder to dig to your fortress.

+ More realistic : Many animals can mine (eg. ants, worms...) and invented creatures like antmen etc. should be able to do it too. And dwarves aren't the only creatures who mine, humans do it aswell.
- But no animal dig dwarf-sized tunnel, and we can imagine that dwarven tunnels are very complex structures, inaccessibles to the engineering of other races.

+ Could be an interesting underground feature : An adventurer will be able to explore tunnels and find an underground nest.
- Cave do the same.

+ Give a hint about the location of some features and minerals.
- And spoil the fun by the same way.

- Could worsen the pathfinding situation.
+ Or simplify it, because there won't be total blockeade anymore.

- The monsters will be able to destroy the fortress design.. and break into a magma or water pool, spelling doom on the fortress.
+ The tunnelers AI could be made to avoid warm / damp wall, and walls could be reinforced to be inaccessibles to the tunellers (in the same fashion that walls are smoothed or engraved).

... there's more pros and more cons, but theses are the ones that I saw the most.


It's time to clear that issue. So cast your votes : For or Against tunnelers ?

[Kanil]

Against. I'm a whore for aesthetics and don't want these people digging random holes all over the place.

[StrayCat]

For. I'm here for war and realistic combat. When I spawn near a goblin tower, I sap the entire location and collapse it and sometimes the hills around it. Because it's how you do things without losing a single life. The goblins should do the same to me. Bring it on, as well as their siege engines and their masons and all their combat engineers. I don't even want there to be a way to reinforce walls so they can't be dug through. Section off your fortress and install floodgates and doors at chokepoints. Trap corners. Trap hallways. Especially trap your main production area, with all the workshops, stockpiles, animal pens, underground farms, and wells. Have a standing army on duty near vital locations. And be ready for war.

[Nesoo]

I submitted "For" as my vote, but it's a conditional "For". I don't want tunneling in the way that most people think of it... rather, I'd like to see something more like the nydus canals in Starcraft. The invaders (or whatever) would dig an entrance, then, after some time has passed, they make an entrance tile inside your fort. The game could even make an actual, though undug, path if it would simplify things. Then invaders can enter the, uh, entrance, and pop out the exit after a few seconds. Miners could "collapse" the tunnel by mining the exit (or entrance), which would just turn it back in to a normal stone wall.

As Kanil says, "I'm a whore for aesthetics", so I'd really prefer that if it's in, it doesn't mess things up.

[Warlord255]

I'm not voting; I am for it in the future, but right now, there are easier-to-code ways to implement siege breaching and other improved tactics.

[bjlong]

For, with conditions--if the animal/creature is significantly smaller than the dwarf, then the "entrance" tile would be a good idea. Realistic mining is a must, which means hauling overhauls are a must. Tunneling should only be used if the creature can't enter through conventional means, or if the past so many sieges failed.

[Foa]

I just hope it doesn't destroy any tiles, well for besiegers...

[Vattic]

I am for tunnelling units but only if it really will be good for the game, and so certain things should be possible and certain restrictions need to be in place in my opinion.

Make the tunnels refillable, you should be able to pack loose dirt and rock back into a tunnel and make things as good as new, you could even make it so you can collect bags of dirt like sand so as to avoid the problem of limited resources. This would solve the problem of aesthetics. Collecting dirt would be good for farming also, and underground gardens, covering up constructed rock floors on the surface to let grass grow again, most of this is also aesthetic.

Our dwarves can tell when they hit warm or wet rock and so should besiegers, this would stop mining creatures, once again for aesthetic purposes really and simply because flooding your own tunnels makes no sense. having them flood our fortresses by accident isn't good.

Some races are restricted in their tunnelling, for example; some only tunnel in soil, meaning tunnelling under fort walls would be possible unless you make them good foundations. You could even limit the depth of tunnelling and/or length of tunnels.

Tunnelling needs to make sense, this is part of bigger issue though concerning what besiegers know about the layout of your fortress though, having their tunnellers dig into an underground chamber with deliberation when they shouldn't know its there is a real issue.

Oh and one other thing, imagine your being besieged by an army of dwarves, why wouldn't they dig, they're dwarves?

[Apegrape]

If it's used in moderation, I'm in. No swarms of giant ants/antmen completely caving in your entire fort, but a few mega-/semi-mega beasts attacking a few times. Perhaps some giant, goblin-controlled worms that come in huge sieges too.

[King Doom]

Unless the option to fill in tunnels and then engrave the artifical walls just like untouched unmined rock is added then I'm totally against this. Tunneling should be added, but it should be entirely optional with a very easy on/off setting. I love building massive, intricate forts, and having evil meanbad the goblin hack through a wall so he and his squad can turn around and run away at the first sign of a cat because the main goblin force has run throuhg the gate and been killed by my army would really, REALLY annoy me.

There's the map would be ruined problem, that's been brought up a few times, and depending on how and where they tunnel from it could really cause pathfinding problems, not to mention the possibility of all that rock sitting there untouched (I hate just leaving mined rock lying in my fort, and so should everyone. getting rid of it by magma dumping or chasming really helps performance and soothes my OCD.)

The suggestion that was made further up though, about one square being designated a tunnel entrance and the other the tunnel exit is a really good one, I can see that being a nice, easy way to deal with the situation.

[Timst]

Concerning the "mining to an area they don't know", let's remember that besieger are able to "hear" a door unlocking at the deepest level and on the other side of the map, without sending even a single recon unit. They're also able to see where a single dwarf is, even if there's a mountain between the attacking army and the dwarf, as long as the guy is accessible (ie, not behind a locked door or a moat).

This is the same problem that allow dwarves to know where is each single item on the map, every time, even items they have never see... currently, creatures seems to have the same view as the player, excepted perhaps for the hostiles (they need to be at crossbow range to detect ennemies).

But this is another issue.

[Foa]

I am for tunnelling units but only if it really will be good for the game, and so certain things should be possible and certain restrictions need to be in place in my opinion.

Make the tunnels refillable, you should be able to pack loose dirt and rock back into a tunnel and make things as good as new, you could even make it so you can collect bags of dirt like sand so as to avoid the problem of limited resources. This would solve the problem of aesthetics. Collecting dirt would be good for farming also, and underground gardens, covering up constructed rock floors on the surface to let grass grow again, most of this is also aesthetic.

Our dwarves can tell when they hit warm or wet rock and so should besiegers, this would stop mining creatures, once again for aesthetic purposes really and simply because flooding your own tunnels makes no sense. having them flood our fortresses by accident isn't good.

Some races are restricted in their tunnelling, for example; some only tunnel in soil, meaning tunnelling under fort walls would be possible unless you make them good foundations. You could even limit the depth of tunnelling and/or length of tunnels.

Tunnelling needs to make sense, this is part of bigger issue though concerning what besiegers know about the layout of your fortress though, having their tunnellers dig into an underground chamber with deliberation when they shouldn't know its there is a real issue.

Oh and one other thing, imagine your being besieged by an army of dwarves, why wouldn't they dig, they're dwarves?

Since you said that, can I change my vote?

[Tormy]

"For" of course, because it would enchance the siege system [+ because I've suggested it firstly a long time ago ]. Also, it is realistic. Tunneling [to break into castles] was a valid tactic in the middle ages even. In fact tunneling should not be restricted to civilizations only. Some creatures should have the "tunneler flag" as a natural ability. Example: Different worms, including epic sized giant worms, various underground beasts.

[G-Flex]

Unless the option to fill in tunnels and then engrave the artifical walls just like untouched unmined rock is added then I'm totally against this.

I agree with the above. If constructed walls/floors acted more similarly to natural ones, it would be much less of a hassle.

[Pilsu]

Pathfinding nightmare, not to mention unsightly