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Author Topic: Language magic, or Yet Another Long Magic Rant  (Read 9421 times)

Eagleon

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Language magic, or Yet Another Long Magic Rant
« on: February 03, 2009, 11:52:51 pm »

I realize these threads are a dime a dozen, but I just had to get my thoughts out in writing, and I thought I might as well share.

Currently we have a lot of spheres that could be very useful in magic, and we also have a very robust language system. Today at work I thought "Why not combine the two", and my brain started churning.

This would probably be suited to a high magic system. Each word would be learned seperately. Wizards would guard their words jealously.

Verbs: These determine the ultimate effect of a spell. In fact, the most basic spells are just verbs by themselves. This doesn't always work so well, because of the Rule of Refinement (below), but if enough power is put into it, a single verb spell can be very devastating. Or silly. Power Word Butter.

Adverbs: These flavor and/or empower the effects of a spell. They can be associated with a sphere, and if they match well with the verb, the effects may be magnified ("brightly incinerate" instead of just "incinerate"). Or if the verb has no sphere, the sphere may change the effect entirely ("Darkly teleport" moving the target through shadows, "teleport" just moving them) Currently as far as I know, there are no adverbs in the language files. Some adverbs would lend more power to a spell ("greatly" versus "slightly"), and thus be rarer to find. They'd also be guarded more carefully.

Nouns/Adjectives: Nouns and adjectives would determine the target of a spell. If there are no nouns, the spell tries to affect everything around it in a range determined by the power behind it. So for instance, to cast a simple firebolt at a creature to the south, you might use "ballistically burn south creature". Of course, this could target any creature to the south at all, and if there were more than one it might be wiser to use "ballistically burn south enemy".

Nouns have spheres as well. Nouns/adjectives that match with the verbs and adverbs in a spell mesh better, and generally allow for a more powerful effect. That said, while a dragon is associated with fire quite powerfully, using fire magic against it would be rather ill-advised unless you were trying to boost its strength or something.

Creatures and certain special objects may also have Truenames - proper nouns that affect the creature directly if used in a spell. Typically for sentient beings they're only created so that any random mage can't do it later on in the person's life. Creatures with truenames are also associated with whatever sphere(s) the name implies, and to a limited extent may take on some of their characteristics. A person truenamed "Sunblood" would be courageous, while "Hatesneeze" might get sick more often and be bitter. It's easier to Truename a creature or object predictably while it's young. Truenaming an adult can lead to some amusing consequences.

Now, on to the rules that give it a bit of regularity:

Rule of Refinement
A spell will affect any and every possible target that its words and power allows. That means that the previous example of "Butter" would attempt to coat everything in a sphere with butter. But the spell "Butter Feet" would look for and butter any feet, including table feet, orc feet, and hoary marmot feet.

Rule of Verbosity
The more words you use in a spell, the weaker it becomes. The exception is adverbs that amplify power, but even these can take from a spell's power if used excessively.

Rule of Will
A caster's will is linked to a spell, as is the target's if it has any. A spell may be resisted at the time of casting if the target is aware the caster is using magic. If multiple targets are involved, their will combined is greater than it would be for cancelling the spell, but taken on an individual level their ability to resist the spell is weakened. Once a spell is cast successfully, and the effects become physical, it may no longer be resisted except through normal means.

Casting time:
This is a big limitation for wizards on the battlefield. Obviously longer spells take longer to physically speak, but in addition, raising enough power to make it worth something may require chanting the spell multiple times, and releasing at the end. It depends on the wizard's power. Large rituals that destroy huge tracts of land in one big explosion are possible, but it may take months of chanting to gather enough energy.

The Ritual Chamber:
The most powerful spells in this case are the simplest. If you can manage to make it affect only one thing, that is. Truenames are useful in such cases, but sometimes you don't have one. In that case, getting a place that's isolated from other possible targets may be the best solution. But such things are not without their potential pitfalls. Making a chimera with "combine other creatures" could prove disastrous if the wizard's pet cat walked in at the wrong moment with a dead squirrel.

Enchanting:
Artifacts right now have names, and fit in well with the Truenaming thing. These could be whispered into the ear of the dwarf that makes them by powers unknown, and could be a source of new words for the adventuring wizard to discover. The names of artifacts could be spells on their own, their craftsmanship lending them their constant inexplicable power. This could become quite dangerous - "Whisperkill the Throne of Clean Death" slaying whomever sits in it when no one is looking. A suiting "gift" to an elven diplomat.

*pantpant* Ok, that's about it for now. I just like the idea of using something like the name creation screen to make spells in adventure mode. That and Gods using the same system to make really powerful/strange effects. "Sense Naughty Mortal", hehe.
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Felblood

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Re: Language magic, or Yet Another Long Magic Rant
« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2009, 05:56:49 am »

Tier Pargon Aritak Pargon Pargon Mantorok[/b]
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Faces of Mu

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Re: Language magic, or Yet Another Long Magic Rant
« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2009, 09:05:47 am »

This is a pretty interesting idea. The near endless possibilities seem right up the DF ally! When I read it I was asking myself as to how the player's prowess is limited, and how does the player character grow?

It would make sense to take the options out of the player's hands to begin with and let them learn magic words here and there that they can put together themselves in their own combinations, but it becomes a little ADOM/Roguelike if spells are just handed to them randomly. If Toady were to follow that vein, then words could have an individual number of uses per day, but I'm personally a bigger fan of mana-point rather than tally-point magic systems.
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Mikademus

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Re: Language magic, or Yet Another Long Magic Rant
« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2009, 09:19:47 am »

Language magic was one of the most wonderful parts of the Ultima games. It was also extremely central to Knights of Legends, which I'm fond of bringing up here every so often. It would work well-ish for adventure mode, but the model is more questionable for fortress mode, thoughm which is worth thinking about.
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Mel_Vixen

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Re: Language magic, or Yet Another Long Magic Rant
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2009, 01:49:36 pm »

Maybe there should be some sort of "true language". That would also prevent people to curse each other by accident. For dividing the red sea (or your Mexican beansoup) you could tie in also other symbolism like music or more classical Gesture.

The system could get very messy if you Know 2-300 words of Power. Maybe here you should be able to have an Book to write the spell down or Memorisizing an certain number of spells. If i sit in an fight i dont want to use 3 Hours to seek through my Wordlists to create an potent phrase. I want Press M (or what ever) and then click on the speel i want to throw. The chance to instant phrase an new spell should anyway still be in.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2009, 02:06:48 pm by Heph »
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bjlong

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Re: Language magic, or Yet Another Long Magic Rant
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2009, 01:58:40 pm »

Interesting system. However, you've got a problem, aesthetically.

If I want to burn Urist McCharcoal, according to your system, the first of the following two statements would be more potent.

"Burn Urist badly."

"Burn Urist down to cinders, and those cinders to ashes so hot that they catch on fire again, recreating her as a flame spirit, and yet again make the fires so hot that even the flame spirit is burned with the fires of a thousand suns until that flame spirit is burned to oblivion, and even that oblivion, instead of being a safe rest, is tainted with fire, burning at the edges and flaming even further to burn away death itself, leaving only Urist burning eternal."

I'd rather the second be pretty darn powerful.
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Mel_Vixen

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Re: Language magic, or Yet Another Long Magic Rant
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2009, 02:02:47 pm »

The second spell is also so long that you catch 5 Atacks from this urists chicks Steel-longsword while chanting that monster. It would be very draining too.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2009, 02:05:55 pm by Heph »
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Granite26

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Re: Language magic, or Yet Another Long Magic Rant
« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2009, 02:05:49 pm »

Language magic was one of the most wonderful parts of the Ultima games. It was also extremely central to Knights of Legends, which I'm fond of bringing up here every so often. It would work well-ish for adventure mode, but the model is more questionable for fortress mode, thoughm which is worth thinking about.

I could almost see you writing the spellbook yourself, for fortress mode.

bjlong

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Re: Language magic, or Yet Another Long Magic Rant
« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2009, 02:07:41 pm »

The second spell is also so long that you catch 5 Atacks from this urists chicks Steel-longsword while chanting that monster. It would be very draining too.

And yet, if I've got good meat shields and a steady supply of soul-fuel being shoveled on the furnaces of my magic, it should be devastating.
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Eagleon

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Re: Language magic, or Yet Another Long Magic Rant
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2009, 02:36:00 pm »

I never said you couldn't make a spell like that. But it would require a hell of a lot of power, because it is actually doing more than one thing. If certain components of a spell repeat they should count as repetitions of the previous part, to make it more powerful. But that spell would be doing a lot of different things, as I'd interpret it - Burning her, turning her soul to flame, destroying her soul with fire, destroying the space that previously contained the soul with fire, etc.

It'd be a very powerful spell, for sure, if you actually had the power behind it to cast it. But if you just had the energy around to light Urist's hair on fire, she'd barely feel a wave of warm air unless you chanted the whole thing a -lot- before letting it loose, because it's being focused on many different tasks.

And yeah, the intent of my suggestion was to have a separate language entirely for magic, with a phrase book for ease of use but also the ability to write new spells at any time with something like the naming interface.
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Felblood

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Re: Language magic, or Yet Another Long Magic Rant
« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2009, 02:52:31 pm »

Ah, you mean like "Pargon Tier Pargon Pargon Aritak Pargon Pargon Xelotath Pargon"

That's Etearnal Darkness' spell system, where you pick a noun, a verb and a color, and heap pargons on it until it can kill gods (assuming you have enough mana and an array that they all fit on).

It does leave a certain element of mystery out of magic, when the system essentially equates to third grade grammar.

Though it does make for a sweet moment, when you realize that you just acquired an eleven pointed array, the size of a city, powered by four elder god hearts. --An artifact that allows you to summon elder gods to fight other elder gods.

I'm just saying, a magic system that's too flexible can have some dire ramifications.
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Eagleon

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Re: Language magic, or Yet Another Long Magic Rant
« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2009, 03:11:26 pm »

Did eternal darkness have "bald" as a verb? "Bathe"? "Echo"? "Drink"? It might be boring in a game where magic is only used to kill, protect, summon, etc. But by the time magic starts to roll out, there are all kinds of things it could do and affect in DF. I think having a magic system that's inflexible has been done to death :P I want to see spells that replace a creature's eyes with ice cream. That replace the caster's eyes with ice cream, because he was too stupid to limit the effect. For DF, that would be trivial, and I think it should take advantage of that.
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Felblood

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Re: Language magic, or Yet Another Long Magic Rant
« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2009, 03:40:56 pm »

This was a system with like seventeen words and you could kill the god of violence.

How much worse would it be to have a system where you could turn the gods into melted soap?

Moreover, how do you build a system that can parse such a huge library of combinations into magic, without making the whole thing an exercise in overpowered madness, or simply hardcoding each spell?

Parser technology still hasn't progressed much past "Use screwdriver on safe," or "Kill man."
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Mondark

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Re: Language magic, or Yet Another Long Magic Rant
« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2009, 03:48:38 pm »

I actually like this idea, especially the tie-in to DF's existing language system.
A good, free-form, magic system is going to be much more interesting, and plausible, for a game like DF, where it's already tracking all the creature's body parts, and the materials to go with them.
 A system like this makes much more sense in as detailed a game as DF.  I think I'd prefer a 'geomancer' style system, but I'd certainly be quite happy with a system like this.

This was a system with like seventeen words and you could kill the god of violence.

How much worse would it be to have a system where you could turn the gods into melted soap?

Moreover, how do you build a system that can parse such a huge library of combinations into magic, without making the whole thing an exercise in overpowered madness, or simply hardcoding each spell?

Parser technology still hasn't progressed much past "Use screwdriver on safe," or "Kill man."

See, this is exactly why I like DF.
Eagleon's post about eyes with icecream is actually quite possible with DF's system.  The game is already tracking all a creatures eyes, and what material they're made of, so swapping out that material for whatever shouldn't really be all that difficult.  It'd be easy to implement spells that temporarily change melting/boiling/etc points for a material in a certain area, using a simplistic grammar engine.

Really, any magic system that DF implements is going to be much more flexible than any other game out there, simply because so much of the world is already simulated in such detail.
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Eagleon

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Re: Language magic, or Yet Another Long Magic Rant
« Reply #14 on: February 04, 2009, 04:08:26 pm »

This was a system with like seventeen words and you could kill the god of violence.

How much worse would it be to have a system where you could turn the gods into melted soap?
It'd be a hell of a lot funnier. But you'd need to overcome the will of the gods to do this, and then there's no guarantee the god wouldn't turn itself back, or leave its avatar and possess you. They're supposed to be immortal and incredibly powerful.

Moreover, how do you build a system that can parse such a huge library of combinations into magic, without making the whole thing an exercise in overpowered madness, or simply hardcoding each spell?

Parser technology still hasn't progressed much past "Use screwdriver on safe," or "Kill man."
The stuff I mentioned wouldn't really require much beyond that. Yes, a lot of the effects would be coded - I'm imagining a scripting language used here, though. It wouldn't need to be hardcoded, since it isn't called so often. But it would be a lot easier to create such a system than in any other game. And the effects wouldn't necessarily need to be exactly what the player wants - some inaccuracy and backfire would actually be part of the flavor, in this case, instead of just the frustration of "pry safe with screwdriver" not working as intended.

The overpoweredness of the magic itself can be handled by scaling it in worldgen to taste. If the player wants transmutation effects to be very weak, all the relevant verbs are thus weakened. If they want powerful elemental/fundamental force effects, but no silly stuff like 'butter', they could do that too. If they want to be able to turn entire wilderness tiles into boiling acid, well, wizards would probably end up dominating all the other entities, but that's their choice, and I think it could be pretty fun to play a game like that.
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