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[The-Moon]

Some of these may not hold no game play for DF, but i find it puzzling how toady missed adding many of these in. Such as a wood axe or even a black smith hammer....

Shovels
Wood Axes
Tree Cutting Saws
Carpenter Hammers
Nails / Screws
Drill > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bow_drill
mortar(for making stone walls)
Tongs
Blacksmithing Hammers
Hoe's(for farming)
Butcher Knife
Skinning Knife
scythe or sickle
Wood Working Saw(for cutting wood in the carpenters shop)
Glasses > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glasses
ladders
Mason Chisel
Wood Chisel
Pitch Fork

I'm sure theres a lot more i missed...

Forgive me if these have been suggested already. However i think they should have already been programmed into the game  

[ March 19, 2008: Message edited by: The-Moon ]

[Ubersoldat]

They'd probably just add too much more complexity (gotta smith 5 more butcher knives or everyone dies!) if they were required for their respective tasks, and there wouldn't be much point if they weren't. But what do I know, this might be one of the things planned down the road, to have certain jobs require their own tools.

[ March 19, 2008: Message edited by: Ubersoldat ]

[The-Moon]

quote:Originally posted by Ubersoldat:
<STRONG>They'd probably just add too much more complexity (gotta smith 5 more butcher knives or everyone dies!) if they were required for their respective tasks, and there wouldn't be much point if they weren't. But what do I know, this might be one of the things planned down the road, to have certain jobs require their own tools.

[ March 19, 2008: Message edited by: Ubersoldat ]</STRONG>

In my opinion I don't think the game is complex enough, I cant even consider it a complex game. Its not that complex. It just has a steep learning curve....

Also if you want to argue this with me, please explain how its complex, because im not seeing the complexity in it...

Also i do know what the word complex means     > http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/complex

[ March 19, 2008: Message edited by: The-Moon ]

[ March 19, 2008: Message edited by: The-Moon ]

[Mover#005]

That being said, more tools would get really frustrating fast, with dwarves dropping everything everywhere etc.

[The-Moon]

quote:Originally posted by Mover#005:
<STRONG>That being said, more tools would get really frustrating fast, with dwarves dropping everything everywhere etc.</STRONG>

Why are they dropping everything every wheres?

There only going to drop tools if they don't have that job skill selected anymore.

That can be fix just by making the dwarfs drop the tools in the tool stock pile, rather then dropping it where they stand    

If there is no tool stock pile to drop the tool in, then they should hold onto it until there is a stock pile, or someone else needs the tool they have.

Problem Solved  

[ March 19, 2008: Message edited by: The-Moon ]

[Appelgren]

I'd rather have one multipurpose axe and one multipurpose knife. More specialized tools could be an option, but they should not be required. I'd rather see actual uses for allready present items like toys, mugs and instruments.

I want the world to be even more detailed but I feel no urge to micromanage it. I wish I had less control over my dwarves not more. I want to give general orders and then watch the dwarves carry them out in insanely detailed ways.

[kaypy]

This could meld well with the advanced workshops suggestion. You dont *need* much more than a basic some-sort-of-axe and maybe some-sort-of-hammer to start off with, but if you want good quality workshop results, then you need the right tools.

Tool storage could be handled by making them able to stay in the workshop unless some other workshop requires that tool. Im thinking here about a situation where, for example, carpentry requires say some-sort-of-axe and some-sort-of-hammer, and blacksmithing requires some-sort-of-hammer. If you only have one hammer, then it will need to be carted around to where its needed, but if you make enough hammers one will stay in each workshop.

[Sean Mirrsen]

Problems with starting equipment will be solved if all professions start with their relevant hand-held tools. Say, a carpenter arrives with a saw, a mason has a hammer and chisel, a woodcutter has a hatchet, a cook has a suitable knife, a butcher will have a bigger knife, etc, etc. It will have to be balanced (so that you don't take a profession just to have a toolset you can sell), possibly by linking tool quality to the skill level of the embarkee.

That way, tasks can easily have fixed requirements for their permorming, because it will then be up to the player to balance his point spend and bring along at least the bare minimum required for survival.

Complexity will not increase, even with custom workshops, because you'll be, for the most part, still doing the same stuff, only you'll have to remember to perodically purchase or craft replacements for the tools, especially if they will be subject to wear.

Even in the worst-case scenario (all-peasant start with no materials) you may survive. I suppose boulders will be at some point "harvestable" to produce stone without mining. A stonecrafter may use a rock to make a basic rock "axe" (using no tools other than a small rock), which will then be used to cut a tree down, and subsequently make a better axe (with a handle this time). From then on, you will be able to continue, with foraging, hunting, and basic rock crafts until you get bored or rescued by a trade caravan. This is all speculation though.  

[The-Moon]

quote:Originally posted by Appelgren:
<STRONG>I'd rather have one multipurpose axe and one multipurpose knife. More specialized tools could be an option, but they should not be required. I'd rather see actual uses for allready present items like toys, mugs and instruments.

I want the world to be even more detailed but I feel no urge to micromanage it. I wish I had less control over my dwarves not more. I want to give general orders and then watch the dwarves carry them out in insanely detailed ways.</STRONG>

If Toady doesn't add in extra tools, then i would hope he has it planned so that we can at least script in our own tools, and they would work they way there suppose to.

When i say micromanagement. Im talking mostly about things such as....

Choosing what i want to brew at the still, choosing what i want cooked at the kitchen, Choosing what Rocks i want to use to make rock mechanisms, same for the masons shop...

Theres more then that tho.

I would like to have a bit more control of what my dwarfs are doing, rather then them just doing whatever they want.

Yes of course i could restrict the stones from the Z menu, but thats a pain in the ass specially when you want a couple different types of stones to be used.

Maybe this ain't micromanagement however...

I would like to see more tools because it would add that extra layer of depth DF is missing right now. Without the extra tools it just seems stale and stagnant. I'm really not being sucked into the game world, when my dwarfs don't need certain tools for doing certain tasks.

[zagibu]

quote:Originally posted by The-Moon:
<STRONG>In my opinion I don't think the game is complex enough, I cant even consider it a complex game. Its not that complex. It just has a steep learning curve....

Also if you want to argue this with me, please explain how its complex, because im not seeing the complexity in it...
</STRONG>

I consider it to be a complex game. Sure, there are more complex ones, like Hearts of Iron etc., but DF is complex enough to be called complex.
Some of the complexity:

code:

- just to survive your first winter, you have to:
  - provide shelter
    - dig rooms, carve stairs/ramps, install doors, briges, floodgates
  - provide food
    - farm a crop
      - process the crop (some)
    - cook a meal
    - hunt animals
      - dissect animal
    - fish
      prepare fish
    - collect plants
  - provide drink
    - brew plants farmed from crop
    - build barrels
      - chop wood

If you want to do some of the more advanced things (water flow control, magma forges, etc., you have to fulfill even more prerequisites...

[The-Moon]

quote:Originally posted by zagibu:
<STRONG>
I consider it to be a complex game. Sure, there are more complex ones, like Hearts of Iron etc., but DF is complex enough to be called complex.
Some of the complexity:

code:

- just to survive your first winter, you have to:
  - provide shelter
    - dig rooms, carve stairs/ramps, install doors, briges, floodgates
  - provide food
    - farm a crop
      - process the crop (some)
    - cook a meal
    - hunt animals
      - dissect animal
    - fish
      prepare fish
    - collect plants
  - provide drink
    - brew plants farmed from crop
    - build barrels
      - chop wood

If you want to do some of the more advanced things (water flow control, magma forges, etc., you have to fulfill even more prerequisites...</STRONG>

But see, too me thats normal stuff that any game would have that has to do with survival...

For what you just told me to become complex a few things need to be added in...

First off for the digging aspect of things. When mining out a rock wall, you should never get a Rock, you should mine the wall with the pick then next to the wall a pile of small rocks starts to form, which you then need to move with a shovel to a wheelbarrow or a mine cart.

That would make mining complex. Currently its not complex, in fact its way too basic and boring for me  

Next Thing, Doors.

If your making a wood door your going to need several different tools, A saw, a hammer, nails made from metal, or wooden pins. Wooden Pins would require a drill nails would require the hammer, a sanding plane, Some type of glue to prevent the door from falling apart over time.

Then the second half of making a door would be making the door frame.

Also, depending on the skill of the carpenter would determain whether or not the door and door frame were made to the correct sizes. Sometimes a carpenter would make a door and door frame too big, so you get the door frame installed, and then the dwarfs whos installing the door finds its too big to fit into the door frame.

Thats complex. The current system of making and installing doors, is not complex, in fact, it cant get anymore basic then it already is.

Should i go on? Nothing you mentioned shows any complexity to me...

[ March 19, 2008: Message edited by: The-Moon ]

[Puzzlemaker]

I think maybe just a generic Tools item would be good enough for a lot of those.  Like, a toolbox.

[The-Moon]

quote:Originally posted by Puzzlemaker:
<STRONG>I think maybe just a generic Tools item would be good enough for a lot of those.  Like, a toolbox.</STRONG>

I cant say i agree with that....

Unless you make a tool box, then you make the tools which go into the tool box, then the dwarf carrys around that tool box with his tools in it. As the tools wear out his disposes them for melting if there metal, or decomposition if there wood.

[ March 19, 2008: Message edited by: The-Moon ]

[briktal]

There would definitely need to be tool swapping/storage improvements for this, and likely some ability to store tools in workshops.  But also, what would the tools actually do in the game?  Would they be required to use a workshop?  Would they only be required for certain jobs in the workshop?  If they are required, you would need to have some set of tools that you can make crude versions of without other tools.

[The-Moon]

quote:Originally posted by briktal:
<STRONG>There would definitely need to be tool swapping/storage improvements for this, and likely some ability to store tools in workshops.  But also, what would the tools actually do in the game?  Would they be required to use a workshop?  Would they only be required for certain jobs in the workshop?  If they are required, you would need to have some set of tools that you can make crude versions of without other tools.</STRONG>

All diffrent tasks/jobs should require tools.

First off, smelting ore should require a steel or stone ladle(spelling?)

Then you should be able to destinate if you want them made into pig iron, ingots or metal sheets.

Pig iron would be used for things such as swords, Ingots would be used for furniture, and metal sheets would be for armor.

Making stuff in the forge should always require tongs, hammers and anything else a blacksmith would need.

A blacksmith would not need to carry his tools around with him, each work shop can be stocked with there own set of tools.

All tools should wear down over time, otherwise theres no real way to make any type of functioning economy.... Same goes with wooden items decaying, as well as iron rusting.

Cant have a economy if nothing every goes bad and needs to be remade.

Carpentry workshop should have its own set of tools as well, saws, hammer, nails, drills, sanding planes, wooden chisel....

That such stuff. Each different task would require it own set of tools.

Making a bucket doesn't need a drill or nails, mainly just a saw and some type of glue as well as metal bands to hold it together.

A wooden door would need nails, sanding plane, saw, hammer. Or you could in place of nails use a drill.

When a carpenter goes out to frame a wall he needs to take the appropriate tools with him. So he would take nails, hammer, sanding plane and a saw with him to build a wall. Once he gets done building walls he takes them back to the work shop he got them from  

[ March 19, 2008: Message edited by: The-Moon ]