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YES! (i would use it)

NO! (i would not use it, and i think it is pointless/unethical/gross etc.)

yes, but i would dissable it if it was an init option (all yes voters are assumed to be for an init option, only vote here if you think it should be included but you would not use it)

[Kazang]

I vote no because of the kind of content \ personage it might bring to these forums.

So you're cool with the wholesale slaughter of elves, the imprisonment and forced mating of merpeople to harvest the bones of their children, and the constant questions about when we can have pools of blood act like a liquid so we can have blood oceans spilled from the torture of those who come to the fort...

But no poop jokes please?

QFT.

Entirely spot on. All that other stuff has pleasant character. As soon as you guys start posting community stories about the dwarf that shit himself during a siege and then smeared it everywhere I'll be #$&$#in' outta here.

But you're fine with vomit and blood ?

This opinion is so blatantly stupid I feel you must be simply trolling.

[lordnincompoop]

I guess it would all depend on how tastefully it was approached and discussed. When done tastefully, it would probably be appreciated, as the main "no" point seems to be not wanting to see trolls talking about dwarves that shat their pants, or something.

We're all more mature that that, right?

Right?

Right?

[arghy]

I think a dwarf shitting his pants would be an awesome engraving haha.

I would love to have my sewer system running into the new cavern systems only to have creatures use the pipes to attack my dwarves--OH GOD GIANT UNDEAD BATS. I always had a dream of running water to every room and 1 tile channels of water running down the center of every corridor.

[Noble Digger]

But you're fine with vomit and blood ?

This opinion is so blatantly stupid I feel you must be simply trolling.

Hey! Well, you're entitled to be a knob, I suppose. Everyone picks their own shades, and brown isn't one of mine. Rather than antagonize you further since you're defending this feature set with such conviction, I'll concede and move on. You are the victor of the dung hill\shit pile\sewage pipe\etc.

Knob!

[scira]

Would fire creatures have fire feces?

I voted yes, I would use it.

"Urist Mcminer dined in a legendary dining room lately, she had a truly decadent drink lately, she relieved herself in a grand restroom lately. She was embarrassed to relieve herself in front of others recently."

And hey if toady ever implements fetish personality traits (besides tentacle demons?) "Enjoyed watching someone relieve themself recently"

[Nikov]

This is my full suggestion dating back to the release of .31.01. Do forgive posting it everywhere, but 'feces votes' with no proposal in them are resulting in a lot of confusion.

Just so its clear, I'd like 'filth' as an evaporating flow that leaves behind trackable, disgusting grime on the tile. Outside, filth is washed away by rain and dwarves will try to 'use a shrub' if no options are possible. Once you start digging deep, problems arise.

Dwarves who do their smelly business randomly through the fort because you have no sanitation system get unhappy thoughts. Grime gets on their clothes and into wounds, causing infections. Dwarves have to clean themselves as well as the floors of grime, which causes more unhappy thoughts. The solution is to build a latrine, a 1x1 tile room consisting of a chair, hatch cover and bucket, using the hatch cover tile. It is built over open space just like a well, only dwarves can stand on it. You designate it into a room, assigning an owner if you wish or leaving it public. Using a latrine room when more than one dwarf is present in the room causes an unhappy thought; don't forget the door!

Example latrine off a tower; note the gem window and masterful pine door!

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

 When used, the 1/7 bit of filth falls down into whatever hole exists to either splatter at the base of a tower, off a cliff, into a stream, into a cistern, or into a flowing sewer tunnel. In any case, doing so causes a happy thought (a golden throne and platinum bucket causing even happier ones). The dwarf is filth and grime free and returns to his daily routine of vomiting and getting covered in antman ichor. If filth doesn't begin to pile up, it evaporates into grime which can be ignored. If it does pile up, however, it spreads to other tiles using magma physics; unpressured and slow. A busy fort might find itself filling smaller cisterns. A 4/7 tile of filth generates miasma, which can rise through the latrine or any other openings.

Dealing with the filth production of a large fort requires water or magma. Magma obviously burns filth into smoke and causes potentially hillarious results, since a stream of flammable liquid trails from the magma all the way to your dwarf's behind sitting on a latrine. Clever players can come up with a solution or ten to this possible source of fun; floodgates, for example. However water behaves with filth differently. When water comes in contact with filth, any amount of filth, it is turned into filthy water and the two liquids combine. Filthy water leaves behind grime rather than mud, making it unsuitable for farming and bathing, and contaminates wells and pools. Dwarves must cautiously direct the water off site, into rivers or caverns, and possibly have evaporated away in the boundless magma sea. However, filthy water does not generate miasma or burn. It does, however, create an inviting habitat for a variety of mutated crap. I mean carp. Also tentacled beasties and kobolds, naturally.

Some people are worried that huge sewer systems will be required for forts; they are not. They are only required for huge forts. Your founders will be quite content to use shrubs and the like during the early months and once a latrine can be set up in a corner with a decent cistern below, you really have nothing to worry about for several waves of migrants. Once enough migrants amass that your latrines begin to fill and generate miasma, either dump the latrines into rivers, flush them with pumped or bucketed water, or seal up the latrine and dig newer, bigger ones. Only when your sprawling megafortress begins generating a new tile of 7/7 filth every week do you need the sort of sewer system that so many players long to explore in adventurer mode or defend against ratmen invaders. Because there is a lot of build-up time before the major demand arrives, most people should be able to agree this is a way to add fun and challenge to the end game. Kings demanding private golden latrines and sewer monsters crawling out of the deep? Sieges forcing us to close off our sewer system and disease running rampant through the fort? Yes please.

And of course, filth could be disabled in the init raw, and by being handled as 'filth' rather than specifically urine and feces, we put a fig leaf on the matter for the squeamish.

And Here, Quoted Without Permission, Footkerchief's Toady Quotes Regarding Filth

Any, Toady already said he wasn't going to do it.

I don't know how this became the conventional wisdom, because (as far as I know) he's never made an unqualified statement that he wouldn't in any form implement feces, scat, waste, or night soil.  The game already has a brown "filth" material that, according to Toady, is feces (see quotes below).

Here's all the quotes I could dig up (note that this first one is from 2004, and that "no plans" is very different from "won't do it"):

There are no plans to add "night soil".  Dwarves poop little pebbles which seemlessly disappear into the cavern floor, or they collect them and cherish them or something.

Do dwarves have water closets? Will we need to carefully craft "flushing" mechanisms to carry the unmentionables away?

There is currently no potty.

4.  Manure, as a fertilizer.

4. They just drop it everywhere?  Everyone will might be doing it after a while... night soil, and so on.  But it's a dangerous door to open, especially if the room on the other side is full.  If a god turns you into a horse in adventure mode, would you suddenly start dropping the bomb?

From DF Talk:

Toady:   [...] I like the idea of being able to track things and find them, and pick up little kobold scats and dig around to see what they've been eating ... after a fashion, anyway.

Rainseeker:   So there's no poo creatures either?
Toady:   It was a close thing! Because it was literally a decision I had to make, going down this list, because in the Hidden Fun Stuff of course if you get the tentacle demons then you get a layer scattered with various filth on the ground; and there's brown filth and yellow filth and so on and it's not clearly stated but it's a material that I had to put in properties for right? So there's these hard-coded filth materials, and when I was going down the list, you know 'Do I want creatures made out of mud? Do I want creatures made out of vomit? Do I want creatures made out of glass?', there's all these hard-coded materials, and I was just like 'Yeah, yeah, yeah ... No ... No ...' on the filth. But there are creatures made out of the grime, and the grime material is the material that collects on your body slowly over time, and it's also the material that's used in swamp water, so there's this ... I just needed this material called 'grime' for these miscellaneous purposes, it's just crap, just stuff that collects over time and when a creature is made out of that it just says 'composed of grime and filth'. So if you want to call that 'poo' even though it's not it's possible for you to extend your imagination.

Toady:   [...] But the kind of thing that's on the table is gunpowder, and the materials that you need for that are already in the game, I think. We've got brimstone, which is sulphur, and I don't remember if we have saltpetre, if it's there or not, but ... I guess you could do all kinds of things with manure and urine to make it, or you can find it in a crystalline form in the ground perhaps.

And finally, sewers full of filth were a powergoal in the old dev item system:

# PowerGoal153, THE CRACKS OF DOOM, (Future): You flee into the sewer with the baron's ring, but sliding in the muck, you drop it. Try as you might, you cannot locate the precious object in the town's filth.

[Morrigi]

I do not understand why, number 1, people are against trolls making poop jokes but not slaughtering elven children with their mother's own foot or mass murder of kittens. There happens to be a "report" button for said trolls. Number 2, if it were implemented in the above way, it would be the most tasteful, yet realistic way that's on the forums. Number 3, sewer systems were and still are a massive part of city design, and probably always will be. I'm getting the feeling that some people are saying no without reading any of the pro-sewage arguments, and others are saying no for the sake of disagreeing. There seems to be a fairly small minority who actually thought things out for a few minutes before posting.

I guess it would all depend on how tastefully it was approached and discussed. When done tastefully, it would probably be appreciated, as the main "no" point seems to be not wanting to see trolls talking about dwarves that shat their pants, or something.

We're all more mature that that, right?

Right?

Right?

Unfortunately not, and even worse, we have people who seem to be unwilling to ignore the immature people, and give their "LOLOLOLOLOLOLPOOP" posts full attention, therefore keeping the immature people of the opinion that it's ok to talk about, therefore MORE "LOLPOOP". Don't feed the trolls, people.

[immibis]

I'm for poop, not because of the poop itself, but because of the extra challenges and opportunities it brings. Not stuff like drowning elves in poop, but stuff like not being able to wall up your fort indefinitely, and having to build sewers (when you have about 50+ dwarves).

[alfie275]

There really is no reason not to have it in as an Init option, you are only depriving people of what they want by deciding not to include even as a default off Init option.

And any trolls who go around posting "LOL THEY SHITTED!!!1!!!1!" can do this anyway, they would be lieing but they can still say it.

[Askot Bokbondeler]

anybody played fallout? remember modoc?

[Bunny]

I find it interesting that so many people think this is an immature and gross idea; considering the number of very mature and practical reasons stated for faeces/waste/excrement or WHATEVER you feel most comfortable calling it.  Pros that don't involve immature or gross fecal humour;

• This game is one of the most in-depth games in existence where realism is concerned.  Excrement is as natural as all the other bodily fluids and body parts currently being painstakingly and lovingly simulated
• Historically, waste management was a very VERY significant part of any civilisation.  Why is it that, when we think of the great heights of the Roman Empire, we think of their extravagant bath houses, the aqueducts and so on?  Because without such things, these civilisations would not have survived without much greater rates of disease
• Being able to build functioning sewer systems with running water as an option would be so much fun, and would add a real challenge to the game.  It might even convince me that aqueducts are a good thing, absent of a useable river.
• Currently animals do not eat, so there is no reason for everyone to be concerned about livestock leaving waste everywhere; why would it until animals eating is implemented?
• historically, waste has been used for many, many things; fertiliser, tanning, people washed their hair in urine to bleach it, jellyfish stings, wattle and daub construction... this may not be important now, but as workshops and other things become more complex and realistically simulated, bodily waste will become increasingly useful.  Better to become accustomed to some basic simulations of it early on, than stubbornly keep it out until there is no other choice, and suddenly have a hundred things to try and need to mod into it
• As has been previously stated, we are playing as a race of creatures that spend much of their lives smothered in multiple layers of blood, mud and vomit, that freely vomit everywhere when they encounter sunlight, that butcher kittens and use their infants as living shields in battle, and which may choose to deal with enemies by flooding the world with lava, painfully burning living things to death.  They are also all alcoholics, and most crime is dealt with in manners that are near-fatal, or sometimes totally fatal.  Bodily waste really isn't any more offensive than any of that, and yet these things rather than turning players away, attract them

Some things I would like those against this to consider;

We are not asking for this within any particular time frame, so the argument of "more important aspects" is moot, as I think we can all agree there are more important issues right now.  We simply think this should be something that comes in eventually.

Several people have stated tasteful ways this could be implemented.

We would be happy for an init option allowing those who do not like the idea to go without it in game, so no one would be forcing you to experience it.

[Morrigi]

Thank you.

[immibis]

(long "speech")

Agreed.

[Footkerchief]

Bunny's post is the one I'm going to be quoting 6 months from now when yet another series of feces threads gets posted.  Very well said.

[Hugna]

anybody played fallout? remember modoc?

Fallout 1? Never gotten into the game far enough to figure out who or what that is. Explain?

I find it interesting that so many people think this is an immature and gross idea; considering the number of very mature and practical reasons stated for faeces/waste/excrement or WHATEVER you feel most comfortable calling it.  Pros that don't involve immature or gross fecal humour;

• This game is one of the most in-depth games in existence where realism is concerned.  Excrement is as natural as all the other bodily fluids and body parts currently being painstakingly and lovingly simulated
• Historically, waste management was a very VERY significant part of any civilisation.  Why is it that, when we think of the great heights of the Roman Empire, we think of their extravagant bath houses, the aqueducts and so on?  Because without such things, these civilisations would not have survived without much greater rates of disease
• Being able to build functioning sewer systems with running water as an option would be so much fun, and would add a real challenge to the game.  It might even convince me that aqueducts are a good thing, absent of a useable river.
• Currently animals do not eat, so there is no reason for everyone to be concerned about livestock leaving waste everywhere; why would it until animals eating is implemented?
• historically, waste has been used for many, many things; fertiliser, tanning, people washed their hair in urine to bleach it, jellyfish stings, wattle and daub construction... this may not be important now, but as workshops and other things become more complex and realistically simulated, bodily waste will become increasingly useful.  Better to become accustomed to some basic simulations of it early on, than stubbornly keep it out until there is no other choice, and suddenly have a hundred things to try and need to mod into it
• As has been previously stated, we are playing as a race of creatures that spend much of their lives smothered in multiple layers of blood, mud and vomit, that freely vomit everywhere when they encounter sunlight, that butcher kittens and use their infants as living shields in battle, and which may choose to deal with enemies by flooding the world with lava, painfully burning living things to death.  They are also all alcoholics, and most crime is dealt with in manners that are near-fatal, or sometimes totally fatal.  Bodily waste really isn't any more offensive than any of that, and yet these things rather than turning players away, attract them

Some things I would like those against this to consider;

We are not asking for this within any particular time frame, so the argument of "more important aspects" is moot, as I think we can all agree there are more important issues right now.  We simply think this should be something that comes in eventually.

Several people have stated tasteful ways this could be implemented.

We would be happy for an init option allowing those who do not like the idea to go without it in game, so no one would be forcing you to experience it.

Most people find our hygiene immature in a sense. However, we all need to do our business somewhere, and yes, in games, business doesn't need to always be in, however, with realism, it would be moved over sooner or later. And yes, our bodily functions have been called "hygiene".

1: Yes, from what people said, Toady is attempting to make this ultra-realistic, so assuming much, this might be added.... might
2: If it weren't for toilets, we would be like animals, and find some place to go anywhere. That and without toilet paper, we would have to clean ourselves with something else. Leaves or newspaper maybe. Also sorry for being a grammar nazi, but it's spelt "civilization".
3: Sewer systems makes me wonder how long until ours actually be full... makes a scary thought in some ways too... sickening if it's all used as landfills. But yes, a sewer system will give it more of a way.
4: Cows would need to be placed in an area for them to graze, just as horses, and so on. Wolves would hunt for food, tearing, ripping, etc, and lets not forget the needs of cats and dogs. (damn the cats and their hypnotic ways)
5: Um... ew? I know cow poop was used as plant fertilizer, but feces used for tanning, and urine for bleaching?! Well yes, bodily functions are, in a way, used a lot, it gives the meaning "waste not, want not" a... higher standing.
6: Dwarves are, in a sense, not affected by booze as much in this game, which makes it harder for them to get their buzz. (a whole damn barrel of alcohol fixes that) And yes, theres many things that seem horrid, but i guess it's easier to say they're pushing themselves to as much survival as they can get. (that and keep the elves out they're stealing our magma)

With all things aside, people need to stop hammering this idea just because they think it's wrong, as just see MANY people asked for an init option to turn it on. And it should be off by default if they're this deadset against it. But in a sense, i guess if we, the players of Dwarf Fortress, need to help Toady into seeing if this idea is worth adding or not, then by god, we'll head for it. Now... assuming enough, i'm betting this idea may be added in the near future... perhaps... 33.12? Hopefully not too soon until the military is fixed, and all that.