1. Technology.
This is a fantasy game, but I'd like to see technology in it.
Only, do it like this:
The whole world starts out with with primitive technology.
If the player does NOT research a new technology, then no one will be able to use that technology.
Also, if the player researches a technology, no one magically also knows it; they must somehow get the tech from the player.
Perhaps you could also add an option in the init to enable other civs discovering stuff. In fact, you should, so that the players who want a tech race can get one.
Either by trading, stealing, or salvaging from stuff the player had that got destroyed in war or something.
This will allow players who do not want to play a game with more advanced technology to be able to play without it.
It would also be very nice if you made raws for technology. I do not know how it would work, but, it will be well worth it
2. More on Technology
Building on the previous thought, how will it work? With much discussion, I'm sure you'll find a method everyone can agree on.
If it comes down to it, you can even add init options/raw stuff that control it.
Now...How it will work...
Let's say this was implemented right now.
So, you have your huge fort, and a dwarf or two who like physics. You have not yet researched any advanced tech
You can build a, for example, small physics labratory.
It is outfitted with whatever tools the dwarf requires to study.
Now, dependong on, let's say, a raw/init option, you get to tell your dwarf to research "The wheel" and/or you can do "blind research", as is in Sid Meire's Alpha Centuari.
Once you tell him to do something, he goes, grabs the tools he needs, and begins working on it.
Depending on his intelectual skills, he may research "The wheel" in a day or in a year.
Another idea: Enable "Random Discoveries", and a carpenter, while working, might just accidentally craft a wheel. If he/she is smart enough to recognize its potential, you know have "the wheel".
As I said, this needs a lot of discussion.
I'd prefer whatever path is chosen, hower, to allow: a few changes to the RAW/init will satisfy all (or atleast almost all) players.
Since you, Toady, do not want post 1400 AD Tech (Unless that has changed), please make it possible for modders to add it in.
So, items/constructions/actions might require a certain tech to be researched, for example.
I am aware that other similair discussion have occured, but, might as post them here.
Discussion from the thread this originated in:
Not sure on the technology part, since it feels that a tech tree does not fit too well inside DF universe, the difficulty is how to organically add that into the game that make simulation realistic (instead of a simple, to build X,Y,Z, you need tech W).
Quite a few modern invention was already invented long before their time (a basic steam engine was invented in the Renaissance), however, in many cases, such inventions were ignored/forgotten for several reasons, a few I can remember are...
1. No need for it. The invention solves a problem that doesn't exist yet (steam engine did not take on because slaves were an abundant power source).
2. No supporting technology. The first difference engine (a mechanical calculator) was designed, but hampered by the fact that early machining technology cannot reach the precision required.
The problem with all these "technology upgrade" ideas is that, for the most part, there WAS no technology upgrades in the Middle Ages. It was, in fact, well-known for being a time where techonolgy was completely stagnant, where free thinkers and inventers would have to join the church to avoid religious persecution for their thoughts, and even then, most of their discoveries were largely ignored by the general peasantry because they were so stubbornly conservative and traditional.
(For instance, the discovery of potatos did not immediately translate into their use, even when it could be proven that potatos were superior crops in cold weather, as their underground growth protected them from frost. The French, in particular, utterly refused to eat them and refused orders and incentives from the nobility to plant them, which helped lead to the famine that sparked the French Revolution. Potatos only caught on in Germany because so many wars in that nation had burned so many fields that people were willing to plant crops that would grow inside the dirt, where they at least wouldn't burn away entirely...)
The best way to involve a "tech tree" in DF is to instead have a "dependency tree". Alchemist's Workshops from 40d, for example, requried 3 clear glass vials. That required a glass making industry (and sand), as well as an ashery (and wood) to make the clear glass. If we had more hardware requirements for making many of the workshops that we build, it would potentially be possible to have the sort of progressive set of requirements for more complex buildings or industries that require more precision hardware that would require advanced workshops to build.
Yes, that is difficult, but there's a whole community available to think about it.
When I say technology, I don't necessarily mean modern techs/inventions.
I mean any and all technology should somehow fit into a tech tree.
Actually, I don't like tech trees too much, they're mostly linear.
So, how about it is realistic.
For example:
You can discover steam long before you discover mechanics, but you have no use for steam until you research mechanics.
When you have both steam and mechanics made known, you can build that artificial waterfall with basic steam engines, even if they're as simple as dropping water on magma so that the steam moves turbines that spin gears.
If you discover a technology, it may unlock uses for other technologies you have discovered and/or provide you with inventions that you can build.
It's a little more complex than the simple, "to build X,Y,Z, you need tech W".
So, there's one possibility.
Remember, if Toady puts the existing technology into a tech tree/whatever you want to call it, players can add their own techs in.
NW_Kohaku, you have a point there, but a dependency tree is not as satisfying. It will work if Toady refuses to add in any sort of tech tree/whatever you want to call it, but...
Actually, ancient humans DID use steam power. Mostly for whistles and spinning things. They didn't use it to generate ELECTRICAL POWER which was then used to do other work, like light a room, or drive a motor to run a bucket chain. But steam engines were well documented and used.
It would be completely in keeping for dwarves to have steam generators to do things like make whistles that can be heard by all dwarves in an embark area, or to boil water and let the steam shoot out of a pipe to the surface to remove the water that is coming into their mines. Going further steam punk would be up to Toady, since it is his game and he's a primary visionary of it's world (along with his brother).
Slave power was cheaper then mechanical power. So there was no reason to go past that point until economics turns it around--- that is, if you don't have access to cheap slaves, and you still need the work done, then other means to do it economically becomes feasible.
One way to unlock technologies could be a little more random then "you go find out what a wheel is" and have it as a sort of artifact mood which ends in the entire fort being able to make something new, aka "urist claims a carpentry workshop, takes one log and begins working" The artifact wheel spinning things has been created, and from then on you can make wheels, yet hav little use for them until someone else claims a masonry workshop or carpentry workshop and makes th first mechanism/cart. This is turn could solve Toady's long dellimma of "How do I make artifacts more useful"
I think that the best way to handle technology in DF would be to give everything a "level."
Each type of armor/weapon/craft would have a difficulty level to make, and each material would also have a level, defined in their raws.
Each civ would have a range, in their entity entry, for their capabilities During worldgen, each civ would be assigned a value in that range. For example:
Kolbolds might have LEATHER 5:10, METAL 1:3, WEAPONSMITHING 1:4, and ARMORMAKING 1:2.
A dagger or blowgun would have a level of 1. That means that every kobold civ would be able to make these weapons, from whatever materials they can work. Copper and Tin would have a value of 1 as well, so all kobold civs could make copper daggers. Bronze would have a value of 3 as it is a complex alloy, so a few kobold civs might be able to make it. Iron would have a value of 4, and be completely inaccessable, even if they stole some iron bars from the dwarves. Leather armor has a value of 2, so only more advanced civs would have it, but they would always be able to make leather shields and helmets (much easire to make a boiled leather helmet than a boiled leather breastplate. Spears would have a value of 2, axes 3, and swords 4, so many kobold civs would have spears, some would have axes, and a few swords.
This could even be tied to perceived value and rarity of items. The more you exceed the level by, the more likely the item in question would be to appear, and the less a trader would be willing to pay to get the item. (Dwarf Civ (Metal 20, weaponmaking 17) "A copper sword? I'll give you two pebbles for it." Elf Civ (Metal 0, Weaponmaking 15) "A copper sword? I will gladly trade some of my animals for such a fine example of your craft.")
that sounds like a perfectly reasonable way to handle it, and since those ideas are easily modifiable it gives modders more lee-way.
I don't know about us having to actually discover new technologies, since after all we are just a small party branching off from the dwarven kingdom, right? But along those lines, what if the available technologies was dependent on the age of the world?
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Topic: Some thoughts on Technology (Read 15867 times)