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[Jokerman-EXE]

Assist Org with Water Healing.

I've been getting my own reads, Vector, and it seems to me that Solifuge and you are buddying awfully hard. You start with some very pointed accusations and insist that you're getting a strong scum read. You point out that he's accusing Webadict who's not even in this game and that's a slip. You say his act of being charming is a sure sign of scummitude, yeah?

Then...he votes you, and you decide that he now seems like pissed-off Town. Really, Vector? Just like that, all those slips you pointed out and insisted on, you just drop them after one post? Immediately after he votes you? I can't be the only one seeing a problem here.

[Lonewolf I]

Toony, all the evidence in your post points to Vector buddying Solifuge, but not necessarily the other way around.  Why so quick to incriminate Soli along with her?

[Jim Groovester]

Ottofar: Get your lazy ass in here and answer my goddamn question.

Ottofar, what are you doing random voting people who already have three random votes, pal? What do you hope to accomplish?

Ottofar, you didn't answer my question. What did you hope to accomplish by putting additional 'random' votes on people with three random votes already?

Lonewolf I: I think you mean Jokerman-EXE, since ToonyMan isn't in this game.

[Lonewolf I]

I do indeed.  You people need to stop changing your avatars. :-P

[Jokerman-EXE]

Toony, all the evidence in your post points to Vector buddying Solifuge, but not necessarily the other way around.  Why so quick to incriminate Soli along with her?

Oh, sorry. That was a mistake of semantics on my part. I meant that Vector was buddying Solifgue, because I haven't actually seen much reciprocation.

I'm not saying I don't find Solifuge slightly scummy, because I've had this feeling ever since he started posting that something's off. But in regards to the current argument, no, I don't think he was buddying her at all.

[Vector]

You don't address the problem of you being presumptuous. Further absent is any mention of Org's alignment.

I was presumptuous.  Deal.

I also happen to think Org is scum, as I keep repeating.  Mention enough for you?

Apparently to you the reason to assist Solifuge is because you think no one is going to help Org, which really tips me off about what the actual purpose of your vote on Org was. Not that you think he was scum but that you think he'll be easy to eliminate in a duel.

No.

If Solifuge were my scumbuddy, I'd be more likely to help Org for purposes of camouflage (previous statements of precisely what I thought of Org notwithstanding).  This is all within the hypothetical of "Geez, Vector, you're just helping Solifuge out because you're scared that Org is going to beat him up," initially established by Org.  I mean, seriously.  If you had to guess--honestly!  Without much context, and you said "Okay.  Org vs. Solifuge.  Which one do you help out?" I'd be putting my money on Solifuge.  It's kind of like that old Superman vs. the Flash in a footrace argument.

The purpose of my vote on Org was to get Org into the ring, because I thought he belonged there.

I've been getting my own reads, Vector, and it seems to me that Solifuge and you are buddying awfully hard. You start with some very pointed accusations and insist that you're getting a strong scum read. You point out that he's accusing Webadict who's not even in this game and that's a slip. You say his act of being charming is a sure sign of scummitude, yeah?

Then...he votes you, and you decide that he now seems like pissed-off Town. Really, Vector? Just like that, all those slips you pointed out and insisted on, you just drop them after one post? Immediately after he votes you? I can't be the only one seeing a problem here.

Yup.  He seemed to start getting genuinely frustrated and annoyed in a very townish sort of a way.  As such, I unvoted him and looked elsewhere for tells.  Sure, he was talking about kittens, but there was steel in his voice that I believed.

I honestly don't see any "buddying" here.  I haven't tried to win Solifuge onto my side.  I haven't complimented him.  I haven't been joking around with him.  All I did was attack, pull a read, and unvote.  That's all.  Very simple.

[Toaster]

Solifuge:  Why did you never respond to my vote or question?

Jetsquirrel: What do you plan to do with your assist, and why?

[Jim Groovester]

I was presumptuous.  Deal.

I also happen to think Org is scum, as I keep repeating.  Mention enough for you?

You can't wave away that one so easy.

Why were you presumptuous? You weren't expecting that people would have a problem with your Org vote. Else you wouldn't have shouted at Org that you thought nobody was going to help him.

What were you expecting, exactly, when you rushed in to assist against Org with only an incredibly weak meta argument against him? You must have assumed your position was stronger than it is. Or you assumed that Org was going to be Org and you could get away with weak meta arguments.

Need I remind you of the history of scum jumping on the Org being Org wagon? It certainly explains why you thought you'd be safe there.

No.

If Solifuge were my scumbuddy, I'd be more likely to help Org for purposes of camouflage (previous statements of precisely what I thought of Org notwithstanding).  This is all within the hypothetical of "Geez, Vector, you're just helping Solifuge out because you're scared that Org is going to beat him up," initially established by Org.  I mean, seriously.  If you had to guess--honestly!  Without much context, and you said "Okay.  Org vs. Solifuge.  Which one do you help out?" I'd be putting my money on Solifuge.  It's kind of like that old Superman vs. the Flash in a footrace argument.

The purpose of my vote on Org was to get Org into the ring, because I thought he belonged there.

WIFOM WIFOM WIFOM.

This is completely useless. What am I supposed to with this? Take your word for it? There are a billion things you can do as scum. This doesn't prove anything.

[Solifuge]

Though it's not ideal, I admit that I was secretly hoping to be sent to the Arena... the reason for which may be made apparent soon, and maybe not. I was lucky enough to get pitted against a bona-fide scumbucket though, which is a plus... sadly it seems that Org, whom both Jim and Janus find scummy, is somehow deserving of heavy buffs, which also effectively conceal any Cabal Tells we may be able to get from this battle. Well done on making this battle completely worthless to the Town.

Anyway, since I've now got my little spotlight, on to business.

I don't like this. I'm very much tempted to assist the hell out of Org right now because of this.

I didn't say no one would help him.  I simply don't think that the town is going to go out of its way to help Org, and I'm not seeing a single assist turning the tables that hard.

You don't address the problem of you being presumptuous. Further absent is any mention of Org's alignment.

Apparently to you the reason to assist Solifuge is because you think no one is going to help Org, which really tips me off about what the actual purpose of your vote on Org was. Not that you think he was scum but that you think he'll be easy to eliminate in a duel.

And I'll even bet that you and Solifuge's little verbal skirmish was just a cover to distance yourself.

I am hella tempted to assist Org right now.

No, I'm not comparing you and Toony.  I'm saying that you seem unusually rational, and that whenever I think Toony is unusually mature, he's usually scum.  This is more a meta observation on my own thought processes in relationship to the game than a direct comparison between the two of you.

As far as BMIX goes, I simply don't feel you're acting like you usually do as a cornered townie.  Might be an error of judgment on my part, but it's what I've got.

Meta arguments suck. Screw you and Solifuge for trying them.

Assist Org with Water Healing.

So Jim, I'm trying to follow your thinking here. I'm scummy, because Vector is waffling on her votes/assists towards me? What does that make you then, when you pulled not one or two, but Three U-Turns on me: you started off pressuring me from the RVS, and after your argument fell flat you switched into support mode. It wasn't until I voted for you (accompanied by a simple suspicion which you pretended not to see), that you hopped right back on me. Really blatant "Oh My God You Suck" aside, me and Org were then sent to the Arena, and you then proceeded to condemn Org for being useless, scummy, and ridiculous. Then citing some nonsense argument that, somehow Vector trying to buddy with me meant I was Scum, you decide that the only course of action is to buff Org, despite him being the player you were directly suspicious of. On top of all of that, you do it in such a way as to render any Cabal Tells he may have shown through the combat itself completely invisible. Oh, and way to backpeddle on your assist too (if anyone missed the hidden note, keep your mouse cursor on the underlined text in the above post).

Jim, you need to hold yourself to the same waffling standards that you accuse other players by, or you're going to look REALLY bad. Like right now. You're not an idiot, so why are you making your scumtells so damned apparent? For some reason, you're making a beeline for the quickest way to silence me, using a nonsense argument, and backing someone who you yourself find more scummy than me, and who you can easily incense the town against the next day. Is it because I called you on the fact that you're playing the Exact Same Game you were for Wizards 3, when you pulled a Cabal Victory by quietly manipulating town against one another in a little domino chain, such that when one duelist falls, the other combatant will be implicated for it right after?

Assist Org with Water Healing.

I've been getting my own reads, Vector, and it seems to me that Solifuge and you are buddying awfully hard.

Jokerman, despite that you claim to be going off your own observations, you've somehow managed to parrot Jim Groovester's argument and actions... up to and including his exact Assist. What fresh hell is this?

Yeah, Solly, stop trying to help scum. By letting them have insight to what we may think is our affinity to help in duels.
Thats pretty scummy.

Since I am probably going to die, because town is stupid, I am a Guard.
Wooo.
Also, my affinity is earth.

Even if I had asked for your affinity, which I never did, apparently I wouldn't have needed to, since you decided to shove it in everyone's face of your own accord... oh wait, or does it magically not help Scum if you blurt it out on your own, like some drunk frat guy yelling how wasted he is at a party?

Anyway, nice 1-Removal WIFOM. Your affinity is in the Earth-Air spectrum, and you're probably hoping I'll second-guess you and attack with your actual affinity. Which is why I'm not going to do that. I'll hold off on the final decision, though.

Apparently to you the reason to assist Solifuge is because you think no one is going to help Org, which really tips me off about what the actual purpose of your vote on Org was. Not that you think he was scum but that you think he'll be easy to eliminate in a duel.

No.

If Solifuge were my scumbuddy, I'd be more likely to help Org for purposes of camouflage (previous statements of precisely what I thought of Org notwithstanding).  This is all within the hypothetical of "Geez, Vector, you're just helping Solifuge out because you're scared that Org is going to beat him up," initially established by Org.  I mean, seriously.  If you had to guess--honestly!  Without much context, and you said "Okay.  Org vs. Solifuge.  Which one do you help out?" I'd be putting my money on Solifuge.  It's kind of like that old Superman vs. the Flash in a footrace argument.

If you're scum, apparently a simple bus was all you needed to push me in the ring, so well done on that. As far as I see it, you might quite possibly have been trying to cast suspicion on me, but fumbled and switched to trying to make me look bad by association, and drag me down with you... but I also know you're experienced and coy enough that that sort of slip isn't normally in your repertoire. Unless, of course, it was done to a specific effect (like condemning a scum-buddy to clear yourself). I also have the luxury of knowing that you're not using me as a pariah.

Anyway, if I live, you'll just have a bit of fire from me to contend with. If I die, you'll be looking at a storm of suspicion. So for your sake, you best hope I survive, hint hint.

[Jokerman-EXE]

Assist Org with Water Healing.

I've been getting my own reads, Vector, and it seems to me that Solifuge and you are buddying awfully hard.

Jokerman, despite that you claim to be going off your own observations, you've somehow managed to parrot Jim Groovester's argument and actions... up to and including his exact Assist. What fresh hell is this?

That was actually a coincidence. But you've taken my quote out of context for the actual meat of your argument.

For one thing, I went on to explain that I didn't actually find you guilty of buddying back, simply that Vector was buddying you to some extent. I also provided evidence that Jim Groovester did not. These are my own reads. Don't like it, tough.

[Vector]

You can't wave away that one so easy.

Why were you presumptuous? You weren't expecting that people would have a problem with your Org vote. Else you wouldn't have shouted at Org that you thought nobody was going to help him.

What were you expecting, exactly, when you rushed in to assist against Org with only an incredibly weak meta argument against him? You must have assumed your position was stronger than it is. Or you assumed that Org was going to be Org and you could get away with weak meta arguments.

Need I remind you of the history of scum jumping on the Org being Org wagon? It certainly explains why you thought you'd be safe there.

Good lord.

No, I'm not expecting people to have trouble with a D1 Org vote.  Why would they?  Is my logic worth less than other people's?

He's throwing irrelevant data into the picture (the fact that JTF and Leafsnail have opposite views on his worthiness), setting off meta alarm bells, and being irritatingly contradictory.  That's good enough for a D1 vote, for me.  If it isn't for you, then tough.  You can write my name in red tomorrow, if it makes you feel any better.

My statement is this.

Between Solifuge and Org, completely out of context of the game's alignments, arguments, whatever, I would expect more people to help Solifuge than Org.

Very simple.

Obviously, I didn't assume that "Org would be Org."  My 'weak meta argument' consists entirely of "Org is not being Org, and this worries me."

If you're scum, apparently a simple bus was all you needed to push me in the ring, so well done on that. As far as I see it, you might quite possibly have been trying to cast suspicion on me, but fumbled and switched to trying to make me look bad by association, and drag me down with you... but I also know you're experienced and coy enough that that sort of slip isn't normally in your repertoire. Unless, of course, it was done to a specific effect (like condemning a scum-buddy to clear yourself). I also have the luxury of knowing that you're not using me as a pariah.

Anyway, if I live, you'll just have a bit of fire from me to contend with. If I die, you'll be looking at a storm of suspicion. So for your sake, you best hope I survive, hint hint.

Your guesses are a giant mess, dude.  I thought you were acting slightly weird.  I voted you, I questioned you, I did the usual "My gut is screaming scum so I'm gonna hang you!  Wait, never mind, just pressure-voting" switcharoo, and then I got your reaction (pissed) and built myself a verdict.  After that I noticed how Org was behaving and attacked him.

What worries, though, is your little Catch-22 there:

You say that if I want to survive, I should help you; if I want to die, I should help Org.  But if I help Org, then I will be not only denying my convictions, but acting self-preservational.  I'm in trouble either way.

Now, why would you create that friendly little dichotomy you can rely on later?  That doesn't look like a trap for scum.  That looks like a trap for townies you want lynched.

[Solifuge]

I admit, I'm not at the top of my game right now. I have a feeling a lot of that was a mess, but that's neither here nor there.

Your reaction checks out, which is good. Joker seems okay as well. Still waiting for Jim to stop being a royal carbuncle and start owning up to his statements, and Org to... well, in this case for Org to die.

[Jetsquirrel]

Solifuge:  Why did you never respond to my vote or question?

Jetsquirrel: What do you plan to do with your assist, and why?

I may vote for Org as see that there is some evidence that Vector and Soli may be scum, and according to my own gut which you all find strange i think that vector is scum. But il wait what will happen enxt

P.S what does WIFOM mean?

[webadict]

WIFOM is trying to outguess someone. So someone poisons a glass of wine and they leave the room: do they want you to switch the glasses or not?

[Toaster]

If you're scum, apparently a simple bus was all you needed to push me in the ring, so well done on that.

If Vector is scum, she's bussing you?  Sounds to me like you're admitting to being scum.  Are you going to continue to ignore me, scum?

Jetsquirrel:  You're very passive.  You're waiting for something to happen without trying to make it happen yourself.  Passiveness is a scum trait.  Get scum hunting, or get in the ring.

Also, WIFOM