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[Mephansteras]

The Whiteboard
JanusTwoface: Argembarger, Leafsnail
Leafsnail: Jim Groovester, KaminaSquirtle
Ottofar: JanusTwoface, Toaster
webadict: Zathras


Day ends ~5pm Pacific Today

[Argembarger]

Results that Jim Got:

1. Jim gets KaminaSquirtle to spill his guts out, for like two pages. We got a fantastic look at the inner thoughts of the Squirtle. I mean, you had practically driven him to despair by the time Shadow started acting up. At the very least, it clearly got Kamina's head in the game.

2. Your pressure against Zathras and Leafsnail. You're constantly in the thick of the arguments.

3. Holy shit, 90+ posts. You obviously aren't afraid of your posts being scrutinized.

4. I haven't seen you do anything scummy.

There, that's why I think you're probably town. Not sure what all you wanted from me, but there.

If you think my results are effective, then why don't you share my suspicions? This doesn't add up.

Who says I don't? I'm just following my own suspicion at the moment, trying to stir up something I feel has been ignored.

Your offer to be a Psychic Warden target was also useless, as, according to the rules,

All Mad Scientists have access to the Mind Shield.

Slow the hell down.

Mad Scientists do not automatically get a Mind Shield. It is an option always available to them, but they would have to take it in lieu of their other tech.

Alright, that's fair, I was mistaken.

Ehhhhhhhhhhhhhh having Org alive is not exactly helpful to the town either. JTF saved everybody the trouble (or the scapegoat) of lynching Org.

Saving your one shot kill until you're sure that somebody is scum is a bad move, because you might die in the night and not get a chance to use it. Better to use it sooner rather than later.

Argembarger:  The traditional uses of a scum assassin bot is to use it right at LYLO to turn it into a scum win- the town usually uses it early before they get killed.  It's not a vindication of his alignment, but it does knock him down on the suspicion list a bit, at least.

I'm not sure I understand. It's better to randomly kill someone and have something like a 70+% chance of hitting town than it is to be patient and use it when the likelihood of nailing some scum is much higher? Why is that? It just seems to me that I would want to avoid taking out a townsperson, even if it means I get lynched before I used the bot. Two townies dying < one townie dying < one townie dying and one dopp dying < a dopp dying.

And another thing: You're condemning the action for how it turned out, instead of for what JTF knew and thought at the time he did it, which is the correct way to determine whether an action is scummy or not.

If it looked like I was going after him based on the results alone, I apologize for miscommunicating.

1. Org suspected him.
2. Even he admitted Org was being much less 'orglike' than usual.

I just don't like it. I don't like it at all.

Also, three way tie? Huh. I'll be around closer to the deadline to break it if it needs broken. I'd like to see if I can hear from JTF himself before then, though. It'd make me feel better.

[Mysteriousbluepuppet]

i'm there, reading p page 42 now. Will be there shrotly

[Leafsnail]

Extend until we're actually lynching scum (preferably Janus, since he's already got two votes).

By lynching Leafsnail.

Your arguments seem to be:

"Zomg!  He attacks people he thinks are scum, and won't stop attacking them when they try to deflect attention from themselves!"
And
"He's defending a virtually confirmed townie!"

I mean, I might ask why, say, you're repeatedly defending JTF, who isn't remotely confirmed.  Or why you've been tunneling me constantly for the last 2 days.  But hey, whatever.

[JanusTwoface]

And I'll interject on the behalf of a virtually confirmed townie whenever I like, thank you.

Virtually confirmed Psychic Warden? Yes. Virtually confirmed townie? No. (I will give you likely townie though, it depends on the rest of the scum team. I can see a Pandarsenic bus happening with 1 or 2 possible teams).

Does this really seem like something a townie would do? Make up his mind early on Day 1, and then never change his mind, or even his focus?

If he's found scum?  Yes.

Have you considered the possibility that you're wrong? (Seriously, I can't tell if you have or haven't). Because if you do manage to lynch me, it's going to look *really* problematic for you tomorrow.

It could, but no.

Also, explanation could be posting exhausted, just to check in at the day end.

And the lack of chains. And me not thinking about Pandar until then.

This ... is all you have? A *lot* has happened that you are completely continuing to ignore for two game days now. In the future, please don't sign up if you aren't going to play.

As my note to Kamina made embarrassingly clear, the non-physicality of the thing was not immediately obvious to me until I reread my role PM in preparation of sending the night action. This is my first paranormal, so it being a remote action was not clear on my mind. Yes, I was worried you were setting me up to be killed by sentry guns or somesuch, but this was a baseless worry.

This I'll give you. There are a lot of little details that it's easy enough to miss in the ruleset. Now you know.

They should both be hanged, but for different reasons. Web is the scummiest, so I'm voting him as that's how one plays the game -- lynch the scummiest. MBP hanging, on the other hand, is more of a meta-game argument: his absence hurts the game, and his replacement would give a scummy player an unwarranted clean slate; the game would proceed better if he hangs. He is certainly scummy enough to deserve to hang. But I only have one vote, so I'm telling people that if we wish to pursue a meta-gaming lynch for the benefit of all players, I'll support it. It's better than having two inactive players murking the waters; it interferes with all our abilities to successfully scumhunt or narrow possibilities down. The game would be better with him gone, so if I can help make it so, I will.

Read what you wrote here (especially the green parts) and remember the main reason you think I'm scummy...

Spoiler: Off topic, attendance board (click to show/hide)

It is, isn't it? Offtopic question: why did you never submit Sorcerer's I results to the new attendance tracking thread?

There's a new attendance board? Huh. I'll look into that.

Diving back through the thread history was very refreshing. How in the bloody hell did you get off this easily so far? You kill Org, for a stupid reason. ... This is not a defense. Attacking you for killing Org is perfectly legitimate, as that is a MAJOR, SERIOUS EVENT THAT HAPPENED.

Oh good.  I point out that you're being active-lurky. You know this is scummy, so you fix your behaviour. But then you come out swinging at me. Not at all what I was hoping for, but it's a good start.

Points (Jim's made most of these already):
- It would be scummier to hold back my night kill until LYLO, although waiting until Day 2 or 3 would have been reasonable.
- I don't have a Mind Shield. It would have been random chance if I had.
- I thought there was a reasonable chance Org was scum.
- He's risky because he's difficult to lynch.
- If I were scum, I wouldn't have killed Org. (Yes, this is WIFOM. It's also true)

Yes, they brought it up with him, and I found his defense to be... well, nothing at all, actually. Deflection, if anything. My problem is that everyone just seems to have gone "Oh, you mean we can't attack you for killing town? ok then" and walked away.

I agree with you that I haven't provided a terribly strong defense. But I disagree that this is a bad thing. It isn't a terribly strong point to attack (from any of the previous times or from you), thus it doesn't merit a terribly strong defense.

Hey, guys. The combination of Thanksgiving and no internet has led me to not posting. I have looked over the thread, and I'll post later today with something more, but I have one question for Zathras:

Understandable, but do you plan on making it back by the end of the day? It's today in case you haven't noticed. If not but you do plan on contributing, request an extension. (I'd rather you posted today though)

I'm not sure I understand. It's better to randomly kill someone and have something like a 70+% chance of hitting town than it is to be patient and use it when the likelihood of nailing some scum is much higher? Why is that? It just seems to me that I would want to avoid taking out a townsperson, even if it means I get lynched before I used the bot. Two townies dying < one townie dying < one townie dying and one dopp dying < a dopp dying.

If it were completely random, that would be a bad thing. If I thought it was completely random, I wouldn't have done it. Your order of how good things are is great and all, but completely misses the point. There are far more town than scum, so we can take risks at the begining. It's towards LYLO that risks get far more dangerous.

1. Org suspected him.
2. Even he admitted Org was being much less 'orglike' than usual.

1. I can't guarantee this, but I'm guessing that Org suspected me because I was attacking him. That's classic behaviour in anyone, more so in Org.
2. I think I responded to this point already. He did get better for a bit when I prodded him for it (which you've just done as well), but then he slid back by the end of the day.

i'm there, reading p page 42 now. Will be there shrotly

Same thing as webadict earlier. Welcome back, understandable that you posted less over the Holiday. But you had better post something by the end of the day or request an extension.

Extend until we're actually lynching scum (preferably Janus, since he's already got two votes).

As much as I disagree with you in general, I can agree with (the first part of) this. Extend.

The second part bothers me though. You seem to want to lynch me no matter what and you're using the fact that I have two votes on me to back that up?  By that same logic, we should lynch you, yes?


I still think lynching Ottofar is the best corse of action, particularly given the three choices we have now.  But we really need the four people who haven't voted (webadict, Ottofar, Mysteriourbluepuppet, and Mish) to vote. It's unlikely to get a vote from Mish, but webadict and Mysteriousbluepuppet have at least promised to do so (ish).

[Mephansteras]

We have two votes to Extend. A third vote will extend the day to ~5pm Pacific Tuesday.

[Jim Groovester]

I'll throw in for an Extend as well.

i'm there, reading p page 42 now. Will be there shrotly

It's good to see that you are fulfilling your minimum required posting to avoid being replaced.

_{RRRGGGGGRRRRRRGGGGGGRRRRRRRRHHHHH}

I'm not sure I understand. It's better to randomly kill someone and have something like a 70+% chance of hitting town than it is to be patient and use it when the likelihood of nailing some scum is much higher? Why is that? It just seems to me that I would want to avoid taking out a townsperson, even if it means I get lynched before I used the bot. Two townies dying < one townie dying < one townie dying and one dopp dying < a dopp dying.

No no no no, you're not killing somebody randomly, you're killing someone you suspect. There's a difference.

Kills, in addition to their primary purpose of removing players from the game, serve an additional and equally important purpose: investigation. If you have a suspect, and you have an Assassin Bot, then it's pretty damn clear what you should be doing with that thing. If you get it wrong, whoops, but at least you can now look elsewhere.

This is the exact same thing people do with lynches. They lynch their best guesses, and if they are wrong, they shrug and look elsewhere.

[Argembarger]

Alright, this makes a lot more sense now, thanks for the explanations.

Unvote.

I see we have an extension, so we don't have to worry about a tiebreaker quite yet. Excellent.

So, in that case:
please start talking anytime now, MysteriousBluePuppet.

[Mysteriousbluepuppet]

As asked ( and finally delivered )

Hello peoples. I am fully aware that ive not been posting for something like a week ( or more), and been useless ( proof: still alive). back on to try ang get stuff going.
Also, just to say i love mafias, but i really have a tendency to not try to catch up once i have like 20 page. Wont have exam to study for 3 weeks so ive decided to try and break the habit.
First off, summary on my toughts on each of you guys

jim Groovester

As mentionned by Aemburger, the Pandar "no night action" scumtell was his doing and with that i find it pretty certain hes not a dopp. As for the Leafsnail hate, now i'm a bit more ambivalent. Sure he does not drop it about Kamina, but thats also the good thing to do. Kamina day 1 shenanigans and day 3 pre-emptive defense aint food for confidence. 

Zathras

I'm not entirely convinced on your Psychic Warden tell. i dont remeber seeing the mod post about your Kamina block ( if i just missed it then by all means point the page). Until then its pretty easy to use your alien chat and prepare this little thing. Really, you just need to refrain from killing for 1 little night, prepare a little post so that your little friend Kamina confirm your fake-claim. Would also explain why Kamina was so jumpy and threw a obviously prepared defence in our face without being asked to. In other news, i agree that lurking is bad ( and i do feel bad about it),but there is much worse running around. 

Kamina

While i'm on the subject, find it weird that everyone forgot about all the day 1 crap and now just take his word like solid gold. What about all the random votes Kamina ? The JTF buddying ? Or really, just you pre-emptive defense is lighting a whole lot of red lights. if you arent scum, you can just post the pm and all is good. Just trowing your defence like that sounds like a suspiciously specific denial. Oh hey guys, if you guys are wondering, i'm totally NOT an alien. No chance. Nope, nothing alien to see here.


Webadict

Stays pretty much himself, i have no idea what he or may not be.

Toaster

I havent really a good guess on what you do or your alignement. Seen you come and go asking question but ever really pressuring anyone. Also, ripping on me for my false post promises, but that i understand well enough.


JTF and Leafsnail

In both case i'm reading back the thread and i just can't make my minbd about you. If i remmber well Jim is all up snail  since he cwont stop working on Kamina, but as i said Kamina got it way too easy.


And thus, id probably cast my vote to kamina. he got off easy after the mindbogginly bad start he had, and really i think that Zathras should have chosen someone else to do his test. that way, if Kamina flip town, we wont have killed a serviceable warden, and else we got 1 less scum

[Zathras]

one question for Zathras: If you wanted to stop scums, why did you bother to tell Kamina that you were blocking him? That's stupid! That means if Kamina is scum, you've turned a 33% chance of blocking scum into 0%. Are you really trying to block scum, or just cover your own hide?

Now it seems you're not even paying attention. This is what I said in the post to which you reply:

I decided it was a good idea to waste my action one night if it would help assuage doubts, but once is enough. The blocking will be henceforth used how I decide is best, with the intent of preventing another kill and nailing more scum.

I know you are smart enough to know better, and engaged enough to remember the whole "is he or isn't he, should he be confirmed" conversation yesterday, so I have no choice but to see this as a wilful misreading of the situation, hoping to steer the conversation away from you. Well, at least you are back. Please don't forget to answer my multiple questions.

People, what are your views on Web as scum now? Why is he getting a free pass? Once again, he has posted, but done nothing at all to hunt or to favour town, except for attacking those who were attacking him. So far it has only been me and Mr. Person... funny how he turned out dead this morning.

[Toaster]

Argembarger:  If you're so concerned about a tiebreaker, why aren't you pressing the people who are in the tie?  With your unvote, that's Otto and Leaf.

Ottofar:  Your continued insistence on not posting just cements the votes against you, especially since you're posting elsewhere.

Leafsnail:

I mean, I might ask why, say, you're repeatedly defending JTF, who isn't remotely confirmed.  Or why you've been tunneling me constantly for the last 2 days.  But hey, whatever.

Why is it bad for him to tunnel you but OK for you to tunnel Janus and Jim?  Your hypocrisy is suspicious.

MBP:  Thank you.  Not sure what you mean by a guess on what I do, but there wasn't a question in there, so whatever.

Zath, re Web:  A Web lurking this much is so unusual for him that I'm not sure what to think, other than to say speculation on the NK motive is a quick trip to WIFOM land.

[Leafsnail]

Virtually confirmed Psychic Warden? Yes. Virtually confirmed townie? No. (I will give you likely townie though, it depends on the rest of the scum team. I can see a Pandarsenic bus happening with 1 or 2 possible teams).

It'd just be dumb though.  The Strong Doppelganger and the Psychic Warden both presumably have high weights, so it would leave the dopps completely crippled, and possibly open to a gamebreaker later.

Quite frankly, anyone who's still seriously floating a Zathras lynch needs an extremely good, specific explanation.  Not vague bullshit to try and get rid of a town role.

Have you considered the possibility that you're wrong? (Seriously, I can't tell if you have or haven't). Because if you do manage to lynch me, it's going to look *really* problematic for you tomorrow.

Wow, this is an unbelievably convincing argument.

Oh wait, no, it's the kind of argument pulled from a mafia member's ass.  If you think I'm scum (although working out what you think is difficult, since you don't post content) then you wouldn't care what I look like tomorrow having lynched you.

Points (Jim's made most of these already):

Lol.

- It would be scummier to hold back my night kill until LYLO, although waiting until Day 2 or 3 would have been reasonable.
- I don't have a Mind Shield. It would have been random chance if I had.
- I thought there was a reasonable chance Org was scum.
- He's risky because he's difficult to lynch.
- If I were scum, I wouldn't have killed Org. (Yes, this is WIFOM. It's also true)

Wow, amazing!  It's almost like you thought all this through last night when making your decision as to who to kill!

Bolded is a bit odd (Org is probably the easiest lynch out there, other than maybe ToonyMan).

If it were completely random, that would be a bad thing. If I thought it was completely random, I wouldn't have done it. Your order of how good things are is great and all, but completely misses the point. There are far more town than scum, so we can take risks at the begining. It's towards LYLO that risks get far more dangerous.

I'm curious - how come this "I thought he was probably scum" didn't manifest at all in day one?  Other than you accusing him of lurking, but you accused everyone of something minor like that.

1. I can't guarantee this, but I'm guessing that Org suspected me because I was attacking him. That's classic behaviour in anyone, more so in Org.

Slipup.  The link you're referring to happened in RVS.  But go ahead and overexplain it if you want.

2. I think I responded to this point already. He did get better for a bit when I prodded him for it (which you've just done as well), but then he slid back by the end of the day.

Not that anyone could tell, since you DON'T POST CONTENT IN ANY OF YOUR POSTS

The second part bothers me though. You seem to want to lynch me no matter what and you're using the fact that I have two votes on me to back that up?  By that same logic, we should lynch you, yes?

Man, even when you're trying to take me out of context, that doesn't work.  I'm saying that we need to lynch scum, and that since you're scum who happens to already have two votes (and we only have 24 hours left), you're the best to be lynched today.

The part of reasoning you're missing from your counterpoint is the "he's scum" bit.  And if you think I'm scum, great - vote me.  If you don't, stop bullshitting.

Leafsnail:

I mean, I might ask why, say, you're repeatedly defending JTF, who isn't remotely confirmed.  Or why you've been tunneling me constantly for the last 2 days.  But hey, whatever.

Why is it bad for him to tunnel you but OK for you to tunnel Janus and Jim?  Your hypocrisy is suspicious.

It's not a scumtell.  I'm pointing out his use of it as a reason why his entire case against me is bullshit (look at the quote I'm responding to).

[JanusTwoface]

As asked ( and finally delivered )

Thank you. Now don't disappear. You have to interact with people.

I'm not entirely convinced on your Psychic Warden tell. i dont remeber seeing the mod post about your Kamina block ( if i just missed it then by all means point the page).

This isn't something that is publically posted. Just in the night PMs to the blocker and the blockee. And the only way the alien scenario makes sense at this point is if Zathras and Kamina are the Exterminator and Operative, but I doubt it.

if you arent scum, you can just post the pm and all is good. Just trowing your defence like that sounds like a suspiciously specific denial. Oh hey guys, if you guys are wondering, i'm totally NOT an alien. No chance. Nope, nothing alien to see here.

What PM? He can't post any PMs from the mods (at least none that we'd be interested in), that's against the rules...  He already posted what he could from Zathras and they don't look faked.

People, what are your views on Web as scum now? Why is he getting a free pass? Once again, he has posted, but done nothing at all to hunt or to favour town, except for attacking those who were attacking him. So far it has only been me and Mr. Person... funny how he turned out dead this morning.

Scummier the longer he goes without posting.  If he doesn't post within the next few minutes, then he would have missed the day end without posting. It's unusual for webadict to be this quite after Day 1.

Argembarger:  If you're so concerned about a tiebreaker, why aren't you pressing the people who are in the tie?  With your unvote, that's Otto and Leaf.

I'm pretty sure you've got that bass-ackwards. He said that there's an extension, so we have 24 more hours to worry about a tied vote.

Quite frankly, anyone who's still seriously floating a Zathras lynch needs an extremely good, specific explanation.  Not vague bullshit to try and get rid of a town role.

Who's trying to float a Zathras lynch exactly? All I'm doing is remembering that he's not quite a confirmed townie for potential future use. You, on the other, seem absolutely convinced that you're right, both in my alignment and Zathras'.

I'm curious - how come this "I thought he was probably scum" didn't manifest at all in day one?  Other than you accusing him of lurking, but you accused everyone of something minor like that.

It did.

Slipup.  The link you're referring to happened in RVS.  But go ahead and overexplain it if you want.

RVS sure... But I'd already attacked him. He (Org) even quoted it in that link.

Man, even when you're trying to take me out of context, that doesn't work.  I'm saying that we need to lynch scum, and that since you're scum who happens to already have two votes (and we only have 24 hours left), you're the best to be lynched today.

What do you think about Ottofar?

The part of reasoning you're missing from your counterpoint is the "he's scum" bit.  And if you think I'm scum, great - vote me.  If you don't, stop bullshitting.

I only have one vote to cast.

[Mephansteras]

The Whiteboard
JanusTwoface: Leafsnail
KaminaSquirtle: Mysteriousbluepuppet
Leafsnail: Jim Groovester, KaminaSquirtle
Mysteriousbluepuppet: Argembarger
Ottofar: JanusTwoface, Toaster
webadict: Zathras


Day ends ~5pm Pacific Tuesday

[Leafsnail]

Who's trying to float a Zathras lynch exactly? All I'm doing is remembering that he's not quite a confirmed townie for potential future use. You, on the other, seem absolutely convinced that you're right, both in my alignment and Zathras'.

Well, if you aren't suggesting his lynch, why are you and Jim wasting so much time attacking him and undermining him?

It did.

(denying reality)

RVS sure... But I'd already attacked him. He (Org) even quoted it in that link.

Ahah.  So, was it a policy attack or an attack because you thought he was scum?

And I'd say someone who seriously suggests policy lynches on their first post deserves to be voted back.

What do you think about Ottofar?

Since he's a lurker, I think he's an excellent mislynch candidate for you.

I only have one vote to cast.

Yeah, but you actually claim to have real reasons I'm scum, rather than vague lurker bullshit.  Or do you?  Again, it's impossible to tell because YOU NEVER TAKE A POSITION ON ANYTHING