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[Zrk2]

I reread the thread and I think that Vector is scum, and NativeForeigner is her scumbuddy. They have been asking each other many easy questions and generally softballing each other, despite trying to distance themselves.

[Toaster]

Zrk2:  It's almost like I said it myself.

Native:

Heh, thanks for being reasonable. I was worried that you would be hard-headed about it.

As for the unvote, that's understandable.

Speaking of which, could you link me to a game or two where you played scum? I've heard a lot about you, but I've never read a game that you've been in.

Could you be softballing her any more?

Reasons for Native:  It's largely associative with Vector, my #1.  They spent much of the first couple RL days throwing easy questions and soft attacks at each other in a manner that reeked of distancing.  Other than that, gut feeling.  I certainly wouldn't vote for him right now, because if I'm wrong on Vector I'm probably wrong on him.  He's currently a target for another day.

Oh right- I did say it.


Unvote Vector.  Vote Zrk2.

Here's my favorite part, you unoriginal scumbucket: here you vote Native for doing THE EXACT SAME THING.

Impressive piggyback, Lordnincompoop.

Go hang, hypocritical scumbag.

[webadict]

Zrk, my post is NOT the same thing as Vector's post. Please notice the difference between the two. While they address similar points, they are NOT the same points.

Don't assume they are.

[Zrk2]

See, Zrk... I'm not really all for any of the things you're saying. Not only do I want Vector to be alive at least until Day 2, I would really, REALLY hope that you'd be giving her a fair trial. On the one hand, you suddenly popped into existence and gave us something to read. On the other hand, you popped out of nowhere and gave us crap to read.

Zrk2.

Would you mind being here? What would be a good thing for you to do right now? See following wall of text.

Why is it you're saying things, but not showing things? What is your information so far? See following wall of text.

What are you hiding? Nothing.

Unvote, vote Vector.

Well isn't that nice. My post is so unimportant, it's answered in itself, followed by a vote. I feel like we accomplished a lot here.
Because there wasn't much to accomplish?

Furthermore, who do you think will be of greatest danger to the scum in this game?

The only benefit of this is to the scum, who can get other opinions on who they should NK.

Ooo, close one. The answer we were really looking for was a person's name.

I don't find this question to be bad. In any way. This isn't bad. It gives about as much opinion on who to NK as READING THE THREAD TO SEE WHO IS ACTIVE. DUR. There IS potential for this question, especially if asked to a scum pre-death. Granted, not much, but I'm not willing to believe that Vector or anybody else is planning on killing someone based on that question.

So, that's one point utterly destroyed. This point proved that you have no idea what you're saying, which might be counter to your overall goal.
It still could be used by scum to see who is going to favour who, based on who they think will be dangerous.

Vector: Why are you asking that third question? The only team that can benefit from it is scum, as you'll essentially be telling them the targets, and since we don't have a doctor or a cop, we can't use that info anyways as we have no way of reacting to it. Besides that, any thoughts on game and players?

In my personal model for how this game functions, the only purpose of RVS is to get people talking and see how they think on any question.  As for why I asked that particular question, I'm looking for hints of awkwardness/naturalness around being asked to assume a scummy mindset.

Also, NativeForeigner.

Vector says the only purpose of RVS is to provoke discussion, but her questions here do nothing to raise questions or provoke discussion, they just go towards establishing a meta. Where she says this:

I deleted your extra quote, as you simply repasted the same one, and I couldn't tell what you were trying to prove.

In fact, she had more to say about NativeForeigner right above that quote, which seems to have been deleted, so as to make your argument appear somewhat less incompetent:

Wuba: Is Leafsnail really scum and you're his partner playing some sick joke you hope you can rub in our faces later?

Also, do you expect anything about this game to be different considering that all of the players are "experienced" in a BM setting?

PFP

How many games have you played here, and which were they?  How many times have you played scum?  Can you link me to the games in which you played scum?

I will agree that these questions are terrible, but the intention is to begin talking, and she DOES happen to get a conversation flowing with NativeForeigner, proving your point to be false. You have again failed to show how this makes Vector scum.

Now, if you had shown these questions and shown them to be terrible, I could agree with that. Your point, however, is moot, since she DOES provoke a discussion with NativeForeigner, if only a while afterward.
However it was not caused by her questions, it came about from other points and questions, so my point stands.

I don't know, but i'd really prefer it didn't.

I believe that constitutes a slip.  Explain this statement.

No it doesn't, townies want to stay alive so they can hunt scum, it's hard to do that if they get lynched.

I don't even know what you're trying to show with this post. If someone has to go back and look at the quote in question to figure out what it means, you did something wrong.

However, that doesn't even begin to say what was wrong with that post. First of all, Vector (supposedly, mind you, as I'm not Vector) misunderstood the quote to mean that the RNG shouldn't favor him (which might have something to do with being picked scum), which was in response to SaintDraze asking why the RNG favored him. Your response MAKES NO SENSE to either situation.

Not only that, but scum would equally like to live. Town want to live because their lynch wastes the Town's resources by not lynching Mafia. Scum want to live so that they win a Day earlier.

Your point thus needs either an explanation or doesn't exist. Which leads to my your next point:
Therefore trying not to get lynched is at worst a nulltell. By your own reasoning IT ISN'T A SCUMSLIP, SO WHAT DID I SAY WRONG? YOU AGREE THAT TOWN WANTS TO LIVE. THEREFORE NOT WANTING TO BE LYNCHED ISN'T SCUMMY, EVERYONE FUCKING DOES IT!!!

She has this claim of being 'rusty,' which she brings out early and often, so she can use it as a shield to defend herself against scumslips later.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

So, Vector, I haven't played a game with you before, but I've heard good things about you. Do you feel a little rusty? What do you think of playing in a less role heavy environment?

Yes, I do feel pretty rusty.  Less so than I did last time I played, though, because I feel confident that I'll be able to be active and aggressive again.  Also, I'm a hell of a lot more mentally stable.

It's the sort of rustiness that comes of not having employed one's skills, not of having had one's skills degrade substantially.

Which is another thing I hate. You keep putting in little notes about how much you might be wrong, just in case you're wrong. You're not certain of what? You have to be certain of something. Why are you making yourself not accountable for your actions later on?

I'm worried about lynching town, and I'm still shaking off the rust.

Here is one of those scumslips: She tries to justify being passive as letting people drop scumtells, yet tries to push others to be more active. Scum, with a side of hipocrisy

I am certain that Jokerman and Zrk have been sidelining.  The latter has been performing some actions reminiscent of playing people off of each other.  I don't like the persistent "So, how do you feel about [PLAYER]" questions that have been flying around.  The latter also piggybacked off of my accusation of piggybacking and didn't exactly pay attention to LN's explanation >_>  It looks like an opportunistic vote.

Then why, oh why, are you not trying to push them any harder? You hardly push them as much as SaintDraze, and that's getting a whole lot accomplished.

I'm observing them.  Sometimes you have to push people as hard as you can, and sometimes you need to see what happens when they aren't under pressure.  A lot of people drop more tells when they think the water is fine, than when they think it's boiling.

This is about your only point you make, and it was mine. Not only that, but you had MY WHOLE POST to not only steal arguments from but to supplement them into your own post. You instead chose to make up your own arguments that are potentially nonexistent, but also really bad.

I can help but feel a little disappointed by that. You didn't put any effort into your post at all. Is this what you were working on while you were lurking? You can't even begin to call this evidence or even a reasonable support for your vote. I'm calling you out, pal. You either need to spend a bunch more time on this, or you need to unvote. Not that I'll unvote you any time soon. You haven't shown yourself to be an asset to the Town.
I, what? I found the scummiest person present, presented my case, and do not see any other serious scumtells, leaving me with no other cases to make. I have looked, but I see nothing obvious, and we are only chasing each other around in circles.

[Vector]

@vectors question:
A players first move is supposed to be during the RVS isn't? You shouldn't start with an already made assumption at the start of the game. I may have been a tad late for the Random voting stage, but I think I was within my bounds...

And her other question- I really think you are confusing me with Supercharazad
I have been horribly passive for the last couple of games I have been playing.
No I think I have found suspect to question. So I am going to lay off of the distance tactics theory...
It would also be cumbersome to use right now since everyone is nearly attacking some one else...

No, a player's first move is supposed to be "whatever information they can get their hands on."  You look for whatever information you can get, and then post.  It's about being as productive as you can, not about being random.  Again: the goal is not randomness, it is to get information.

Of course, in the end you can pretty much always pick up information somehow, but for a beginner it's better to think this way.


On the other one, that's probably fair.



@Zrk2: feeling a bit emotional, there?

[lordnincompoop]

Toaster, you're flinging your vote around like... something. Well, you're flinging your vote around anyways, and it's gone from person to person and flipped back and forth several times. What's with this?

LordNincompoop is being anal retentive about everything.  It's been bothering me more and more.  I don't see the use of branding posts that are clearly jokes as "useless", for instance.  Everyone can already see that.

I'm trying to discourage it.

Really, you're trying too hard to look like you're doing stuff

Yeah, could you elaborate on that? Thanks.

and you seem to be hounding people for every possible mistake.  That doesn't seem like the action of someone trying to find scum so much as the action of someone trying to find lynches.

I don't see why I shouldn't be discussing mistakes. I'm trying to find scum by looking at contradictions, mistakes and suspicious behaviour, and I don't see how that's a problem.

I'll put the allegation to you again - you aren't scumhunting.  You're just picking on as many small points as you can to try and make other people look bad.  You don't seem to be looking for alignments so much as for reasons to hang them.

See above.

I should have elaborated more but i didn't have enough time too.

Elaboration is always welcome, even at a later date.

What I was meaning when I said that I want to vote LNP and Web is that I Really wanted to vote them because they are kinda(very) rude(mah poor poor feelers ), but I can't because generally they are playing so properly to the point that I am least suspicious of them then everyone else...

It's just a game, we're still friends, etc. etc.

Leafsnail however has been nitpicking about it for quite a while on numerous occasions.
(yah I don't really know the right questions to ask - But I think I got something from it.)

Incredibly passive. If you're suspicious, you read their posts, notice flaws, point them out and pressure them. You don't sit and say you're thinking something and don't know how to do it; just do it.

Now pardon me while I eat a stapler in shame.

I wish we could have a Vote tally some time soon.

So you're going to keep lurking or something?

I second the motion for the Votecount, though.

SaintDraze, why aren't you scumhunting? All you're doing is answering questions, faffing around and making short little comments. Why no investigation? Why aren't we seeing any reasoning, or any responses from you?

Skimmed through some pages again:

I have been observing and developing an idea of how everyone is playing this game, so I can have background information upon which to preface my scumpicks upon.

And that prevented you from posting how?



PPE:

No it doesn't, townies want to stay alive so they can hunt scum, it's hard to do that if they get lynched.

Therefore trying not to get lynched is at worst a nulltell. By your own reasoning IT ISN'T A SCUMSLIP, SO WHAT DID I SAY WRONG? YOU AGREE THAT TOWN WANTS TO LIVE. THEREFORE NOT WANTING TO BE LYNCHED ISN'T SCUMMY, EVERYONE FUCKING DOES IT!!!

CAAAAAAPITALS. Why are you suddenly acting this emotional, Zrk2? If he agrees with you, wouldn't that be a reason not to get angry?

I, what? I found the scummiest person present, presented my case, and do not see any other serious scumtells, leaving me with no other cases to make. I have looked, but I see nothing obvious, and we are only chasing each other around in circles.

There is no obligation for you to vote, provided you have good reasons for not doing so.
If you have no other evident, make that evidence appear. You weak case and unwillingness to make a better one is suspicious. You're not putting any pressure on here, and the questioning you're doing seems to be of little value or relevance to you; questioning for the sake of questioning.

[Leafsnail]

Answered right here, Leafsnail:

Fair enough.

To the point that by not asking questions to provoke the discussion that you claim is the point of the RVS you are not living up to your own goals for the RVS.

Basically:
1. You say the RVS is for getting a discussion going based on questions asked.
2. You ask questions designed to establish his meta.

Looking into his meta is not a discussion provocateur, unless you brought it into the discussion, which you haven't. Had you asked some other questions then there would have been no problem.

As to why you, I haven't seen any other glaring scumslips from anyone else.

I will have a half day at school tomorrow and so will have plenty of time to reread the thread indepth and then compose a better list.

This reasoning is painful to look at.  What the hell is this supposed to mean, anyway?  Looking into meta can provoke discussion just like anything else, and I don't see why you'd think this is scummy even if it were a contradiction.

Leafsnail however has been nitpicking about it for quite a while on numerous occasions.
(yah I don't really know the right questions to ask - But I think I got something from it.)

Yeah, this still doesn't make sense.  You don't like what he's doing, you've said a couple of times you don't like what he's doing, but your vote goes to someone who's put their vote where you mouth is.

Spoiler: LordNincompoop (click to show/hide)

I'm trying to discourage it.

You're trying to discourage jokes?

Yeah, could you elaborate on that? Thanks.

Yes.

You post lots and lots of stuff in every post.  But virtually none of it leads anywhere, and none of it actually seems to do anything.  The stuff which is actually kindof relevant seems to just be picking up any mistake in sight to try and make that person look bad.

I don't see why I shouldn't be discussing mistakes. I'm trying to find scum by looking at contradictions, mistakes and suspicious behaviour, and I don't see how that's a problem.

Part of the problem is that most of the "mistakes" you're attacking are clearly nulltells.  The other part is that you throw out a lot of accusations at a lot of people... none of which seem to go anywhere.  I can cite an example in your post:

Toaster, you're flinging your vote around like... something. Well, you're flinging your vote around anyways, and it's gone from person to person and flipped back and forth several times. What's with this?

You say Toaster's been doing (generic action phrased to sound sortof scummy) and ask him an odd question (he provided reasoning with each vote change.  If you had a problem with the reasons, you should've pushed those).  It doesn't seem like you genuinely think his action is scummy, and the question doesn't seem very good for finding alignment.  It does, on the other hand, help to discredit Toaster by attaching him to a scummy sounding action.

[webadict]

Well, I'm back. Can we get a vote count?

I'm too tired for this, but I don't want to end on a No Lynch.

[webadict]

Panda? Vote count? Am I allowed to simply use conditional to move my vote to the first (whether random or first on list) person that doesn't allow a No Lynch?

I'm going to bed, so either that or an extension.

Sorry, but I can't wait up. I have wi
Ork in morning

[Vector]

Bah, I have enough of a case on Zrk2's passive ass to feel happy to see him gone.  Especially if it's a no-lynch or Zrk.

Unvote.  Zrk2.

Extension.

[Toaster]

I'll take a slice of extension, and a dessert of actual reply.  (This first to make sure day doesn't end on me)

[Toaster]

Anyway.

Zrk2 completely ignored me voting for him.


LNCP:  I RVed Zrk2, voted Vector because I thought she was scum (still do, but...), then voted Zrk2 for being incredibly scummy.  I fail to see how that constitutes vote flinging, or changing several times.

Interestingly enough, I checked to see how many times you've changed your vote... and you still have your RV on SaintDraze.  Do you think he's genuinely scummy?  When did it go from a RV to a vote on scum?  Did you RV him because you thought he'd be a good candidate for a D1 mislynch?


Jokerman, where are you?  RVS is over, so your excuse of hating it is dead.  Come out and play!

[Pandarsenic]

Pan returned hours late with a dark countenance. Eyes straight ahead, he announced quite loudly before he had even stopped walking: "I gave you your time. Extra, even. It's time to send someone." As he arrived, he checked the board. Barely a lead on Zrk2. He frowned and looked at his assistants.

"They want more time," one of them said with a shrug. Pan raised an eyebrow. "The night's still young. Go sleep or read a book or something. We can handle it until they decide and we'll get you when they choose. Give 'em a few more hours. Can't have 'em choose wrong, yeah?'

Pan sighed and scratched the back of his neck. "Fair enough, I guess. I'll be elsewhere in the meantime." Before he departed he gave a serious, but tired-looking, stare. "Best of luck."

Vector - 1 - NativeForeigner
Toaster - 0 -
Zrk2 - 3 - webadict Toaster Vector
Jokerman-EXE - 0 -
SaintDraze - 2 - lordnincompoop
Leafsnail - 1 - SaintDraze
webadict - 0 -
NativeForeigner - 0 -
lordnincompoop - 2 - Zrk2 Leafsnail

Not Voting: Jokerman-EXE

Day 1 ending Monday, 9 PM Pacific. 9 Players alive. Hammer at 5, extend at 3, shorten at 5.

Conditional votes may be used in the form of if-then statements. Example: If Archangel doesn't post before the day ends then I will unvote Org and vote for him. Conditionals must be unambiguous and objectively determinable.

[SaintDraze]

Leafsnail however has been nitpicking about it for quite a while on numerous occasions.
(yah I don't really know the right questions to ask - But I think I got something from it.)

Yeah, this still doesn't make sense.  You don't like what he's doing, you've said a couple of times you don't like what he's doing, but your vote goes to someone who's put their vote where you mouth is.

X(
My line of thought is shit...
Unvote

Lets se-
Why do I have two votes when Only LNP is voting m- Oh, conditional vote...

Where was I?
Oh well There is an obvious scum now...

Zrk2
He's current theory of who's scum is those who are questioning each other,
Which at this point is kinda everyone, yet he chooses Native and vector...
Yet he doesn't even put he vote on either of them?

and Then the EMOTIONAL bit never really looks good.

He is being passive( But no where near as passive as me unfortunately...)

Why are you still voting LNP, Zrk2, if you think Vector is scum?

@LNP's question: I am bad a mafia.
nuff' said. I don't have the logical abilities to reason like you guys.
I can't use quotes right either...

[webadict]

Unvote.

I'll need some time.