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[Vector]

Hey, now. Baby steps.

Not everyone's going to be instantly awesome at mafia, and I'd rather encourage people to be active and ask questions, even if the questions aren't all that great, than immediately cast them down and berate them for their quality.

Actively asking questions is a fantastic trait to see in a new player.

... You're right about this.


Folks should listen to Jim and feel good about themselves, because, er, I am a rather nasty player and occasionally forget people need positive feedback >_>  I'll try to be nicer, since this is a failing of myself as an IC.

However, here is my main point of the original comment, which I can see needs clarification:

Asking question after question, with no followup or analysis, is going to cause you issues.  The problem with setting off cycles where player A asks a question of B, which B answers while adding an unrelated question for A, etc., etc., is that it's so easy to just lob things back and forth, wasting your own time.  Shitty intro questions are fine, though you should (of course) try to improve them with time.  I am frankly terribly at asking RVS questions and getting data off of them, which is one of the reasons why I have such a confrontational style and try to jump straight to case-making.

Question after question between two people, though, with no/little analysis or reflection, causes tunneling and can totally pillage your ability to keep your peripheral vision.  Encouraging this is a travesty.

[Max White]

Oh Vector, you bashful troll. I thought beating people over the head with a frying pan is just how you teach people to play Mafia. The fact that your particular frying pan is covered with spikes, and on fire, and filled with acid, is just flavour!

[TolyK]

I wish you all good luck, and you've started well too.
Just saying that I won't be on AT ALL this weekend.

[Max White]

Well we will still have Darvi to keep things on track. Anyway, while you are here, can we get an update on the votes and time before the day ends?

[TolyK]

um.....
sorry, I'm leaving now.  Like, right now.
Darvi can do that, he just needs to post again

[Darvi]

What, a votecount mid-rvs? :V Aight I guess.


Whiteboard

kilakan - 2 - bdthemag, Vector
breadbocks - 1 - kilakan
Max White - 1 - UltraValican
bdthemag - 1 - Jim Groovester
Powder Miner - 1 - Think0028
Jim Groovester - 1 - breadbocks

Not voting: Max White, Powder Miner


3 votes to extend, 5 to shorten, no hammer!

[UltraValican]

Unvote MaxWhite
kikilan What did you think of vectors nice little tutorial on mafia, and  particularly his tone on suggesting that you might be of an alignment that wants to hinder the town(scum basically)?

@every one who is not an IC or kikilan:(can i direct a question at everyone?) on a scale of one to ten how suspicious would you be of someone who was trying to get one of our valuble ICs lynched?

[webadict]

Unvote MaxWhite
kikilan What did you think of vectors nice little tutorial on mafia, and  particularly his tone on suggesting that you might be of an alignment that wants to hinder the town(scum basically)?

@every one who is not an IC or kikilan:(can i direct a question at everyone?) on a scale of one to ten how suspicious would you be of someone who was trying to get one of our valuble ICs lynched?

Please use only red for unvoting and voting.

OR FEAR MY WRATH!

[kilakan]

Kilakan So, when do you think the RVS stage will end?

From my previous experiences RVS rarely seems to end before the start of day two, but as of the moment, it's getting close to ending already.

Unvote MaxWhite
kikilan What did you think of vectors nice little tutorial on mafia, and  particularly his tone on suggesting that you might be of an alignment that wants to hinder the town(scum basically)?

@every one who is not an IC or kikilan:(can i direct a question at everyone?) on a scale of one to ten how suspicious would you be of someone who was trying to get one of our valuble ICs lynched?

I don't think you read vectors tutorial very well, since it sounds to me like you've just bandwagoned him with a rather bullshit question.  Though I think it's a pretty good explanation, and tutorial, though i'm getting the feeling that he's using me to draw out people like you, who jump to agree with him, without adding much of anything yourself.
In response to the fairly unexplained bandwagon, short of "The IC voted him so I shall too" along with my prevoiusly explained suspitions about you, mostly used to pressure you.
Unvote Breadbocks

Vote UltraValican
so I'd like to ask
UltraValican-Why would you vote me, what are your reasons?

((IC question:What exactly constitutes pointless questions, normally I see people asking what would they do if they were type things, and I thought that was vaguely how the questioning started?))

"Large discussion"

You may have missed that after I asked all those questions and talked so much, that I learned that there may not be a mafia IC, I had thought it was a certain thing.  Oh and how should I go about quoting you, should I do what I've done here, or just hack out parts of your post, or repost the whole thing despite the insane clutter it will cause?

Vector-Would you consider using a patsy to draw out potential Bandwagoners a valid strategy in scum hunting?


***If I missed any questions just point me towards em, I'm reading from a phone so I may have scrolled past one****

[Darvi]

Hint: Vector's a she.

I know, gurl in teh interwebz, no wai. But true.

[UltraValican]

Ok kikilan,  the reason  I voted for you was simply because I wanted you to answer my question very carefully, I was planning to unvote you when you answered my question
 Now why would I vote you
-to get an answer out of you
- The fact that you were attempting to make me seem suspicious simply for not asking a question,
- suggesting the I agreed with someone’s argument made me seem suspicious
-Atempting to discredit/ get one of the ICS lynched In all fairness this reason may just be paranoia, but still atempting to discredit a valuble town asset sounds pretty scummy.
- Claiming that I was not asking questions on the grounds that I wast rying to evade being asked questions, again I have no problem answering anyones questions
- And my most recent reason.. REACTIONARY VOTING!
- finally its the random voting stage and you taking being singled out very badly

@Max White how do you feel about vectors accusation of kikilan
@ think0028 I've heard you've played decent scum before. Between all of the players who do you think is might likely scum.

[kilakan]

Ok kikilan,  the reason  I voted for you was simply because I wanted you to answer my question very carefully, I was planning to unvote you when you answered my question
 Now why would I vote you
-to get an answer out of you
- The fact that you were attempting to make me seem suspicious simply for not asking a question,
- suggesting the I agreed with someone’s argument made me seem suspicious
-Atempting to discredit/ get one of the ICS lynched In all fairness this reason may just be paranoia, but still atempting to discredit a valuble town asset sounds pretty scummy.
- Claiming that I was not asking questions on the grounds that I wast rying to evade being asked questions, again I have no problem answering anyones questions
- And my most recent reason.. REACTIONARY VOTING!
- finally its the random voting stage and you taking being singled out very badly

@Max White how do you feel about vectors accusation of kikilan
@ think0028 I've heard you've played decent scum before. Between all of the players who do you think is might likely scum.

The vote for you was more that I realized I was most suspicious of you, and that I had no reason to stay voted on Breadbocks, as for your reasons, it really sounds to me like you are holding the IC's in way too good of a light, you are either complementing them or siding with them on every case. As for taking being signled out badly, it's more along the lines of that I'm a usually agressive player, in defending myself and attacking.  Yet again you are avoiding directly asking questions of the person confronting you.

UltraValican-If you have o problem answering questions, then answer me this.  Why do you hold the IC's so valuable? we do have a non-playing IC for advice, is it simply that you are scummy, and attempting to avoid having the IC's targeting you by showering them with praise and complements?

[UltraValican]

@ kikalan wait, there is a non-playing IC? I complely forgot about him/her, in that case disregard the IC suspicion in my previous post, I was in no means trying to shower the IC's with praise and I’m not quite sure where I did try to shower  them with praise. I hold the IC's valuable because this IS my first game of mafia ever so i figured it would be important to keep them alive until had a suspicion that they would be scum. So really the only reasons I was protecting the IC's were
- to prevent a mislynch
- to prevent the townie IC from getting mislynched which would put the town at a severe disadvantage
@ kikilan which of the IC's are, you most suspicious of being scum since scum Ics seem to be a major concern for you, if it is a major concern.

[kilakan]

@ kikalan wait, there is a non-playing IC? I complely forgot about him/her, in that case disregard the IC suspicion in my previous post, I was in no means trying to shower the IC's with praise and I’m not quite sure where I did try to shower  them with praise. I hold the IC's valuable because this IS my first game of mafia ever so i figured it would be important to keep them alive until had a suspicion that they would be scum. So really the only reasons I was protecting the IC's were
- to prevent a mislynch
- to prevent the townie IC from getting mislynched which would put the town at a severe disadvantage
@ kikilan which of the IC's are, you most suspicious of being scum since scum Ics seem to be a major concern for you, if it is a major concern.

Perfectly valid reasons, but I'm not sure of you yet.  To answer you question, my major concern for a mafia IC is Jim, he seems to be a bit of a lurker, and really passive scum hunter so far, it may very well be that he is just trying to go easy on us, but it is making me suspicious.  Vector on the other hand, is being active, and teaching by example, while aggressive, I find it less unusual for someone to be over aggressive then passive.

As for the townie IC being lynched, there is no sure thing that one is Mafia, and it's all likely that the neutral is giving the scum help in the scum chat, and by no means does it put us at a disadvantage, I mean we would lose a experienced player, but in that case it's likely that they will get killed at night time in the first few days.  We will still get advice, and if they aren't here, it is just one less experienced player who could possibly be working against us.

UltraValican-Since I've told you my IC suspicions, I would like to ask if you have any suspicions about other people so far?

[Vector]

Unvote MaxWhite
kikilan What did you think of vectors nice little tutorial on mafia, and  particularly his tone on suggesting that you might be of an alignment that wants to hinder the town(scum basically)?

Use fewer weasel words.

@every one who is not an IC or kikilan:(can i direct a question at everyone?) on a scale of one to ten how suspicious would you be of someone who was trying to get one of our valuble ICs lynched?

You can direct a question at everyone, with the danger that I might also answer it.

I would be suspicious of:

People trying to lynch an IC on good evidence: 0
People getting excited about IC-lynching just because "one might be scum and they'd be dangerous and it's better to lynch first, scumhunt never:" 5-8, depending on time and circumstance.

From my previous experiences RVS rarely seems to end before the start of day two, but as of the moment, it's getting close to ending already.

Over here, we try to end it as soon as possible.  Preferably almost immediately after the start of D1.  It's already over.

Though I think it's a pretty good explanation, and tutorial, though i'm getting the feeling that he's using me to draw out people like you, who jump to agree with him, without adding much of anything yourself.

I'm voting you because you're scum.  You made a hell of a lot of mistakes, bucko.

((IC question:What exactly constitutes pointless questions, normally I see people asking what would they do if they were type things, and I thought that was vaguely how the questioning started?))

Questions become pointless when they're asked and you do nothing with the information retrieved but ask another question.  I already explained that shitty questions exist in order to start talking, but volleying back and forth with no requests for questions on information previously revealed is a big problem.

You may have missed that after I asked all those questions and talked so much, that I learned that there may not be a mafia IC, I had thought it was a certain thing.  Oh and how should I go about quoting you, should I do what I've done here, or just hack out parts of your post, or repost the whole thing despite the insane clutter it will cause?

There's a non-playing scum IC, but they don't talk in-thread; there may also be a playing IC who is scum.

You can either cut the entire body of the post and respond to the empty quote with a piece-by-piece argument, or hack it to pieces.  I typically prefer the latter.  Definitely don't clutter any more than necessary.

Vector-Would you consider using a patsy to draw out potential Bandwagoners a valid strategy in scum hunting?

No, because I'd never attack anyone I didn't at least somewhat suspect.

This technique has many pieces.

The first piece is the attack on the suspect.
The second piece is the encouragement to other players to consider the suspect.
The third piece is the analysis of reactions in order to find new suspects.
The fourth piece is the selection of a new primary target, or continuation of pressure.
The fifth piece is the creation of other opportunities for those who have messed up in the first round to hurt themselves.

Town is a subtle game.

we do have a non-playing IC for advice

The non-playing IC only helps the scum team.  IronyOwl is actually not allowed to post in the thread.

I am going to say this once and only once:

It is good that folks suspect the ICs.  However, the way to get something out of this suspicion is not to shuffle around your feet, whispering about us.  Levy attacks, assaults, whatever you have to in order to get a read.  We're not omnipotent.  Your passive sitting about is just an entrance for the scum.

@ kikilan which of the IC's are, you most suspicious of being scum since scum Ics seem to be a major concern for you, if it is a major concern.

Too passive.  You're leaving holes in your arguments for people to escape through.

Also, you generally don't have to justify your reason for asking a questions.  Some questions, yes.  Most questions, no.

UltraValican-Since I've told you my IC suspicions, I would like to ask if you have any suspicions about other people so far?

This is not a tit-for-tat game, and you don't have to ask permission to grill someone.  Here is how to rephrase your question:

Who[m] do you suspect, UltraValican?