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[kilakan]

Jack, Pandar, Kilakan: Your thoughts, if any, on the above? (Feel free to ignore the petty arguments if you wish.) Do you feel that I'm thinking in an "untownie" way? Do you think Max is OMGUSing and trying to cover it up with a poor argument? Or do you think something else?

Well I've read over it three times now and I think I understand each point-of-view.  I'll give quotes below with my thoughts.

Haha, you don't see it? I suspect you a little now Native.
Three town, two mafia. If you are a town, your looking at two town, two mafia, 50/50 chance for anybody to be either mafia or scum. Although if you are mafia, and not sneaky enough to catch on, you see things for what they are, so 100% chance on everybody.

Your inability to see things from a townie perspective is rather incriminating to you. If Panda didn't already have a vote on you, I would do it myself.

Yes ok that makes sense at the very start of the game.  After that everything you think about anyone will affect your game.  That makes a objective modifier to the chances for someone to be scum or not scum, based upon your skill in scum hunting and vaguely what you are basing your opinions on.  For instance:
Player 1:He lurks a lot but when he is there he acts properly, scum hunts very well and so far has gotten some pretty good evidence.
Player 2:Moderately active, but never accomplishes anything, acts extremely scummy
one of them is scum, do you still believe there is a 50/50 chance for each of them?  That's what Native Foreigner is talking about.

Kilakan, for seeking advice on how to act townie, and you for not thinking like a townie.

....What?  This makes no sense, you accuse me of getting 'advice' on being mafia, get one of the quotes wrong about it, and now say I'm getting advice on acting town?  I realize it was probably a typo, but really get your fucking shit together.  Though this is off the point.  As for native not thinking like a townie, do you have anything else against him other then your differences of opinion on math?

Yes, I am tired. You don't understand some very basic ideas here, and trying to show you the light becomes harder and harder when you are sure that trying to educate you is trying to confuse you. I will explain them to you some other time, when I feel like teaching you why a scumtell is subjective, and why a 50% chance to be town is enough to assume somebody soft town.

I'm tired of trying to tell you how maths works, and being told I am insulting you for my efforts. My answers are of quality, you just can't read them out of wilful ignorance.


Edit: Ninj'd! Perhaps given the nature of the conditions, we should allow Native to edit the quote out of he's reply to you Darvi.

Other then what Native said, you are being exceptionally defensive on this math argument.

So basically Max White is right on a most basic level, if you ignore everything that happens around you.  Native is right from a subjective point of view, that each player will determine who is more likely to be scum based on proceedings in the game, thus the % chance for each player to be scum changes.  Of course this will only have effect with an experienced player, if you are completely inexperienced then yes, you are still guessing so it IS a 50/50 chance.  I am not calling Max White inexperienced, just that he is wrong about the percentages at this point in the game.  Also knowing another players % ideals about someone is rather useless to you because you simply see things differently then them.

[Jack A T]

You misread. It's kind of hard to look less scummier than Max, and for the same reason. Like I said, he's about 50/50 right now and the rest of everyone I either don't have a scum meta on or haven't posted anything revealing.

Okay, I can see how your post could mean this.  If so, though, it was pretty poorly worded, but meh.

ON THE STATISTICS ANALYSIS ARGUMENT:

This is stupid.  This is very, very stupid.

For example, I'm about 55% sure you're scum, which makes the other 45% spread out among the others, since I don't have an idea of a partner yet. So no, not everybody is 50/50.

...what.  So...if someone does something like deliberately admit to being the mafioso or something else that makes you 100% sure that he is scum, you won't have any suspicions whatsoever other than that player?  Seriously, suspecting someone highly shouldn't, on its own, make you hugely more trusting of others.

And then there's Max.  WHY, MAX, ARE YOU GOING CRAZY AND ATTACKING NATIVE FOR MERELY SAYING THAT HE'S ABOUT HALF SURE THAT YOU'RE SCUM!?!  Why are you going into base probability of any random person being any alignment?  Why are you attacking Native for something established as his meta in VM7, where he was TOWN!?!  And I know you're aware of that last bit, Max.  I linked to it.  In this thread.  Oh, and hey, you're focusing on Native above all others for an inane reason.  Which is pretty stupid.

Jack, Pandar, Kilakan: Your thoughts, if any, on the above? (Feel free to ignore the petty arguments if you wish.) Do you feel that I'm thinking in an "untownie" way? Do you think Max is OMGUSing and trying to cover it up with a poor argument? Or do you think something else?

I...wow.  You were my main suspect until Max came in with his mathematical argument.  Seriously, attacking you for thinking the way you did in VM7 as town is just...wow.

[NativeForeigner]

You misread. It's kind of hard to look less scummier than Max, and for the same reason. Like I said, he's about 50/50 right now and the rest of everyone I either don't have a scum meta on or haven't posted anything revealing.

Okay, I can see how your post could mean this.  If so, though, it was pretty poorly worded, but meh.

This was posted past midnight, so yeah, poorly worded.

ON THE STATISTICS ANALYSIS ARGUMENT:

This is stupid.  This is very, very stupid.

Yes, yes it is.

For example, I'm about 55% sure you're scum, which makes the other 45% spread out among the others, since I don't have an idea of a partner yet. So no, not everybody is 50/50.

...what.  So...if someone does something like deliberately admit to being the mafioso or something else that makes you 100% sure that he is scum, you won't have any suspicions whatsoever other than that player?  Seriously, suspecting someone highly shouldn't, on its own, make you hugely more trusting of others.

It doesn't necessarily make me more trusting of other players, I'm aware of how scum could manipulate the situation if that was so. The process I go through to determine who's most likely scum is kind of difficult to put in words. I would still have suspicions, but my focus would be more toward my number one pick.

I...wow.  You were my main suspect until Max came in with his mathematical argument.  Seriously, attacking you for thinking the way you did in VM7 as town is just...wow.

That said, you ARE aware that you put Max at L-1, correct?

[Jack A T]

I...wow.  You were my main suspect until Max came in with his mathematical argument.  Seriously, attacking you for thinking the way you did in VM7 as town is just...wow.

That said, you ARE aware that you put Max at L-1, correct?

Yes.  Yes, I am.  And, frankly, I'm completely fine with that.

[NativeForeigner]

I...wow.  You were my main suspect until Max came in with his mathematical argument.  Seriously, attacking you for thinking the way you did in VM7 as town is just...wow.

That said, you ARE aware that you put Max at L-1, correct?

Yes.  Yes, I am.  And, frankly, I'm completely fine with that.

You know what? I said I would put him at L-1 as well, so I'm perfectly okay with that answer.

Kilakan: Thoughts on this development?

Max: Anything to say for yourself? I noticed you were on earlier and posted in several threads, but not this one. Why is that? Is your partner not around to coach you and you don't want to dig yourself a deeper hole?

[Max White]

I think you need to pick up a dictionary. Or go to dictionary.com, same thing. If you're "trying to educate me" don't bother. 1.) I don't need it, I know damn well what I'm talking about and 2.) You're terrible at it, stop.

If a scumtell is subjective, it's not a very good tell. When this game gets emotional, it gets nowhere and it ends with town losing. Subjectivity is one of scum's biggest weapons. It causes false-tells and clouds thought. You're still hung up on this statistics thing. Saying somebody might be 50% town is enough to call them soft town is just stupid. By that logic you could also call them soft scum. Assume everyone's scum until someone appears scummier.

You do not understand objective and subjective. Subjective does not mean emotional. If you tried to use objective logic to hunt scum, you would take a random guess because each player has a 50% chance to be scum. So instead you use subjective logic.

Is that what you were trying to do? I know my maths, quality and quantity came out of nowhere from you and you still can't explain why you brought it up.

I bought it up because it is relevant, and I have explained this. Again, the figure I am talking about, that each player has a 50% chance to be scum from a townie point of view, is quantitative, it is quantised, there is no quality such as 'scummyness' involved, the figure you are talking about is qualitative, it is not quantised, and attempts measures a non-numeric value such as 'scummyness', but you do this is a silly means by trying to attach a number to something that does not have a numeric value.

You think you're not insulting me? Just look at your above paragraph:

Yes, I am tired. You don't understand some very basic ideas here, and trying to show you the light becomes harder and harder when you are sure that trying to educate you is trying to confuse you. I will explain them to you some other time, when I feel like teaching you why a scumtell is subjective, and why a 50% chance to be town is enough to assume somebody soft town.

I am tired, well I was tired of trying to explain things to you. Back fresh now.
You don't understand some very basic ideas here, well you don't. And hell, when this game is over, if you flip town, I will kindly ask Vector to explain this to you.
Trying to show you the light becomes harder and harder when you are sure that trying to educate you is trying to confuse you, and it does.

You're trying to "educate" me? You're talking down to me and I hardly think you have the qualifications to do so, especially when you don't even seem to know what you're talking about. Furthermore:

*Facepalm*
Ok, that explains it, your just realy, realy bad at maths, and logical analysis.
...
...but that could be explained by your inability to appropriate high school terms like quality and quantity.

Funny, that looks like an insult. Also, it's "really". Please learn how to spellcheck.

Nope, that looks like I'm saying your bad at maths, and you are.

One more:

Somebody doesn't understand the difference between quality and quantity.

Where did that even come from? It had nothing to do with what we were discussing.

I have been over this.

I know what you're trying to do. You're trying to incite anger in me so I give a false slip. It's a rather elaborate OMGUS, but it's one nonetheless.

Really, if I had the chance to, I would be willing to put you at L-1. You threw me off a little with your reaction to my initial vote, but it's starting to look like your partner was coaching you there. Without your partner to coach you right now, you're falling apart.

You know, I think that is exactly that you were trying to do. I'm sure of it, in fact, and allow me to show you just how sure I am.

Jack: Thank you, so very, very much. Deep down, I wanted this since before the game even started. I passed up the chance last time.
Kilakan and Panda: Lynch Jack for me.
Vote Max White
Oh dear, with three to lynch, looks like I am out. So, as game rules dictate, I must post my role PM.

Ye be Pirates(town)! Yarrr!

Find the treasure and win the game! Whoever has hidden it (the godfather) surely must be havin' a map so try to find him first!

Vengekill NativeForeigner

[Darvi]

What. The. Fuck.

You just broke one of the fundamental rules of Mafia, Max. PLAY TO WIN. Self-hammering is not playing to win, regardless of vengekill. Also, you just lost the game.

[Max White]

I was playing to win, and everything was pointing towards Native just trying to annoy me into looking scummy, because honestly, I find it hard to believe anybody can just not understand something explained to them so many times.

[Darvi]

No. If you are convinced somebody is  scum, you build up a case against them and try to get other people to vote them. GOing all kamikaze on them is horrribad.

[Max White]

Trying to build a case would require explaining why I was correcting he's poor use of maths, rather than insulting him, something I would rather not do for a seventeenth time. I saw a simple means to get rid of somebody who was almost certainly scum.

[Pandarsenic]

Well, that was embarrassing. To be fair, Max, if you had waited about half an hour I probably would've explained that for you.

Darvi, don't confuse "making a really, really bad decision" for "not playing to win" (see, for reference, Native at the end of WWYDT).

[Darvi]

Eh, I guess I should put a link to the scumchat here.

[Pandarsenic]

All five posts of it.

[kilakan]

phft hahaha.  This was fun to say the least, but really felt like a cop-out Max, I really wanted to kill you this time and you robbed me of it.  I love how you looked to pandar and me to lynch the other 'scum' for you, fucking priceless

[NativeForeigner]

Max, while I really just want to tell you how idiotic you truly are, I won't. I hope you take a lesson away from this.

You were talking down to me, arguing against my ESTABLISHED town meta, getting your terms confused, being prideful, and just being an idiot. Not good things to do.

Also, for the record, poor, flakey tells are biased, making them subjective and before long, they're no longer tells. Good tells are objective and never change because they're based on facts. Scum lies, town has no reason to, lurking is scummy (even if you're town), making weak or half-hearted arguments is scummy, buddying is scummy. These almost never change.