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[Vector]

Me?

Never.  I don't look for reasons to climb on bandwagons; normally, I don't even really know who anyone but myself, and possibly a target, is voting!  I keep vote totals in mind, but usually not voters.  And furthermore, I only vote someone because I've found sufficient reason to want them dead.

For example, I wouldn't bandwagon on Solifuge just for lurking.  Two votes is where pressure stops and bandwagoning starts, especially when you cite other people's reasons for it.  Sloppily.  With that in mind, Max White, stop bandwagoning.  I thought you were town, but my opinion is shifting.  You could have voted another lurker, but instead you add a vote to the only pile that might get big enough to save your sorry ass.  Furthermore, you appeal to my authority to argue against Kilakan and others, knowing that I thought you were town and would probably help you out.  And finally, your questions really were bullshit, and your statement that you got alll this stuff out of me by knowing that "sometimes Vector likes playing scum and sometimes Vector likes playing town" is an exercise in the absurd.

A townie, for example, would have admitted to asking a bad question.  You spewed bad questions everywhere and defended them as good.  At this point, I can no longer defend your behavior in the name of your playing badly regardless of alignment.  You're trying too hard to cover everything up.

I also find it telling that you were glad to see me.  As one of your few defenders, I'm not surprised.


Well, okay--to break a tie, and that's it.  That's the only reason I can think of for climbing on a pile of votes I didn't have substantial evidence to help along.


And this is how you know that you can no longer accuse me of bandwagoning right now, as I vote you and hope you get lynched.

[kilakan]

~Snip

Ok, we have some to a stalemate with this argument. I'm going to drop it now, as it is going to eat into time and achieve not much.

Since we have time now, go back and respond.  Also I didn't think we are at a stalemate, I've still getting creative and informative answers from you, the only stalemate I can think we have reached is that you may have run out of excuses.

[Max White]

When I removed my vote I said you weren't scummy enough to be lynched, fyi that means I am still unsure of your alignment, so yes I did keep arguing, and no I am not fully satisfied.

After i got all the answers I wanted and they proved valid, I removed the vote and placed it on the person who I thought was scummiest and should be lynched.

I don't get it. Did you get all the answers you wanted or not?

I think it's very interesting you brought this up now after saying I band-wagoned you, so since you obviously think this has current relevance, what do you think of her third point Max?

*Shhh* Watch. Question me when I'm done with this.

Never.  I don't look for reasons to climb on bandwagons; normally, I don't even really know who anyone but myself, and possibly a target, is voting!  I keep vote totals in mind, but usually not voters.  And furthermore, I only vote someone because I've found sufficient reason to want them dead.

No, you don't just jump onto bandwagons, you like to be safe about these things. See I happened to notice this post and I was wondering if you could explain it for me.

... Wow, I didn't think you'd show yourself as such obvscum so fast, Josh.

I'm disappointed.

So, you called Josh scum, but you didn't vote, and you didn't push. In fact when nothing else happened you just let it rest. I would like to know why, because from my point of view, it looks like you were getting ready to lynch him, as long as you had some support from others. When nobody else came, you didn't follow it at all.

For example, I wouldn't bandwagon on Solifuge just for lurking.  Two votes is where pressure stops and bandwagoning starts, especially when you cite other people's reasons for it.  Sloppily.  With that in mind, Max White, stop bandwagoning.  I thought you were town, but my opinion is shifting.  You could have voted another lurker, but instead you add a vote to the only pile that might get big enough to save your sorry ass.

I'm voting for Soli because if we spread votes over all the lurkers, none of them feel under pressure. If we make an example of one, others might join in.
Also, save my ass from what, exactly? I can't tell the future, I didn't know you were about to vote me, so what else was there to be saved from? Your argument doesn't make a lot of sense.

A townie, for example, would have admitted to asking a bad question.  You spewed bad questions everywhere and defended them as good.  At this point, I can no longer defend your behavior in the name of your playing badly regardless of alignment.  You're trying too hard to cover everything up.

I also find it telling that you were glad to see me.  As one of your few defenders, I'm not surprised.

I still think they were good, and I do not tell a lie.
Also, I'm glad to see you because now I can continue on with my questions.

And this is how you know that you can no longer accuse me of bandwagoning right now, as I vote you and hope you get lynched.

Whoa, did I accuse you of bandwagoning? No, I just asked you about it. Don't be so jumpy.

[kilakan]

When I removed my vote I said you weren't scummy enough to be lynched, fyi that means I am still unsure of your alignment, so yes I did keep arguing, and no I am not fully satisfied.

After i got all the answers I wanted and they proved valid, I removed the vote and placed it on the person who I thought was scummiest and should be lynched.

I don't get it. Did you get all the answers you wanted or not?

I got all the answers I wanted to say that I wouldn't lynch you there and then.  All the answers I will ever want from you in this game?  Dream the fuck on, I still don't really think you are town, I'm just not sure enough of your alignment to say DIE.

I think it's very interesting you brought this up now after saying I band-wagoned you, so since you obviously think this has current relevance, what do you think of her third point Max?

*Shhh* Watch. Question me when I'm done with this.

Ah so when I'm not voting you, I get put off, just like you said you were dropping it when you were not in danger of dieing?  Well fuck you scum, I want a fucking answer to that question and my arguments from before or you CAN hang.

[Vector]

No, I didn't vote Josh, because I still needed to call out Solifuge.  I attacked him, listened to his response, and had enough of it that I felt pretty good about him.

I wasn't getting ready to lynch him.  I was getting a read on him.  It's a thing people do when they play Mafia.  It has nothing to do with support from others, and everything to do with seeing something minor and pushing it until I hear what I need to know.  People tend to do this during RVS.

"Save your ass" from.... well, fuck.  I didn't check the votes, and from the breeze of the conversation I thought you were the one on the chopping block, rather than Kilakan.  I apologize for that, and it is in that context that I was talking about bandwagoning accusations.  Totally out of line.


Gonna keep asking you questions, though.

Anyway, can you really not do any better than a policy lynch?  No other suspicions?

[Max White]

I got all the answers I wanted to say that I wouldn't lynch you there and then.  All the answers I will ever want from you in this game?  Dream the fuck on, I still don't really think you are town, I'm just not sure enough of your alignment to say DIE.

Fine... I shall get onto that block on text after this post.

Ah so when I'm not voting you, I get put off, just like you said you were dropping it when you were not in danger of dieing?  Well fuck you scum, I want a fucking answer to that question and my arguments from before or you CAN hang.

No, more like when your chainsawing me I want you to hold your questions. Feel free to ask, but if/when I am content with Vector, otherwise you are limiting my ability to scum hunt, and that is very anti-town.

No, I didn't vote Josh, because I still needed to call out Solifuge.  I attacked him, listened to his response, and had enough of it that I felt pretty good about him.

I wasn't getting ready to lynch him.  I was getting a read on him.  It's a thing people do when they play Mafia.  It has nothing to do with support from others, and everything to do with seeing something minor and pushing it until I hear what I need to know.  People tend to do this during RVS.

So calling somebody scum and leaving it there is your idea of getting a read? What did you get from the response?

Anyway, can you really not do any better than a policy lynch?  No other suspicions?

Yes, in fact. So far you and Josh. Maybe Kilakan, he is some what random in these things, but the way he jumps between bandwagons and tries to pressure me into lynching Soli from policy doesn't look good for him. I mean trying to insist that a catch all policy should take higher preference than my judgement, especially when it will mean saving he's own skin, doesn't cut it.

Josh I still think is scum. Maybe one day I can prove it... Both you and webba seemed to agree in another game that finding scum is about more than scum tells.

You are doing everything that Ottofar did in roguelike 2, and he was also scum. Testing the bandwagon to see if it will catch on, then voting for who ever tries to call you out on it.

[Max White]

Here we go again!

Ok then fine, you were just asking how to play this mod.  Then it's a decent question for learning about the game.  Not a good question that is relevant to scum hunting.

So it was a decent question? Good. Glad we agree.

No but you have to be flexible you don't lay down a question that only one particular answer could lead to your second question.  For instance if they said no they don't drive, then a second question is "Well why do you not drive a car?".  You learned a little bit about her, but you could have easily pushed it to refine your view, you didn't bother.  For instance a second question could of had a situational what-if type question, then you know a bit more about how she would change her reactions in that setting.

I was happy with the reply, there as I'm not going to push it further. If you haven't noticed, I like to cast a few lines at a time, and if I tried to follow all of them I wouldn't be able to keep up. When I get a good answer, I leave it be, might come back to it later if required, but for the time being, I can be content.

I perfectly understand it, but the fact remains just knowing someone is new doesn't mean that you know what type of new mistakes they could make.

Well no, I can't predict exactly what sort of mistakes a newbie would make, but at least I can understand them when they are made.

Good, you think that someone changing their opinion after learning more about the people in the game is incriminating.  If you think that is incriminating him and it's not just because his vote is on you, why are you not attacking him for it?

Because incriminating and condemning are not the same thing. I'm busy attacking more scummy people.

See cause I thought he was initially talking about the question that you tried to make the noob feel welcome with.  Also I know that correcting a mistake is different, but it didn't read like he was correcting himself, it read like he was saying what he thought you wanted to hear.

Well I can't tell you what Toaster was thinking, but I can tell you that I didn't read it like that.

Hahah no of course I wouldn't, I play to win, so I lynch who I think would most likely be scum.  Don't flatter yourself MaxWhite, I don't hate you and I wouldn't try and kill you just for a laugh.

But lynching people is fun, it's the biggest part of the game! Every lynch we make we do because we enjoyed doing it, the hunt for scum and trying to convince others that you are right, it's all for our own enjoyment. If your not lynching for fun, why are you lynching at all?

[Vector]

He was completely calm about it.  That was the important thing: he was calm, he sounded like completely normal Josh, and through all of his interrogations he didn't flip out at all.  For someone who is so generally nervous, it seemed like a good profile of responses.

Unless you call every unvoted attack "testing the bandwagon to see if it will catch on," you're going to have to do better than that, Max.  I'm not voting you over your allegations, which didn't even appear until after I'd voted you.  I'm voting you over ... well, frankly, some mistakes, but after that I'm voting you because I want a better idea of your alignment.

And, furthermore: if you know where scum is, why don't you vote it?  We're near the end of the day, and as far as I can tell all you're doing is muddying the waters with a policy vote while blaming Kilakan for your bandwagon.  If he's trying to force you to bandwagon, vote him.  Don't keep your vote somewhere you don't think it belongs and blame him for it.

It is the mod's job to take care of lurkers, not yours.  So attack the scum, whoever you think they are.  If that's me, then come here and vote me.  But don't pull this stupid shit.

I was happy with the reply, there as I'm not going to push it further. If you haven't noticed, I like to cast a few lines at a time, and if I tried to follow all of them I wouldn't be able to keep up. When I get a good answer, I leave it be, might come back to it later if required, but for the time being, I can be content.

...

You're accusing me of being scum.  How is this not a good time?

[Max White]

Unless you call every unvoted attack "testing the bandwagon to see if it will catch on," you're going to have to do better than that, Max.  I'm not voting you over your allegations, which didn't even appear until after I'd voted you.  I'm voting you over ... well, frankly, some mistakes, but after that I'm voting you because I want a better idea of your alignment.

What, you mean bandwagoning onto Soli to save my head from the chopping block? The non-existent chopping block? And even if it were there, I changed my vote when we were given an extension so that we might have time to drag the lurkers back into this game. Even if it was between Soli and I, voting after the extension wouldn't have saved me. There is just no merit to this.
No, your voting me because you think I will scare into not attacking you. You knew once I started talking about what you would do in the case of a bandwagon that I suspected you. Or at least thought you knew, it was your massive over reaction that gave you away. Guess some people don't need to vote to get a reaction.

And, furthermore: if you know where scum is, why don't you vote it?  We're near the end of the day, and as far as I can tell all you're doing is muddying the waters with a policy vote while blaming Kilakan for your bandwagon.  If he's trying to force you to bandwagon, vote him.  Don't keep your vote somewhere you don't think it belongs and blame him for it.

I want two things right now, for you to hang, and for Soli to become active. We don't get a lynch until Monday, and we have lurkers doing nothing right now. That makes it clear for me where my vote should be at this moment.

It is the mod's job to take care of lurkers, not yours.  So attack the scum, whoever you think they are.  If that's me, then come here and vote me.  But don't pull this stupid shit.

Is that so? Well ok, taking this into account

The deadline's approaching so I'm changing my vote from pressure to lynch. Pandarsenic's doing a fantastic job of a being a piece of shit active lurker but I'd rather roast Solifuge's ass for lurking than Pandarsenic's.

Don't be mad just because I jumped off your target to my own.

And have you seen Solifuge's vote? Tell me it's not crappy and copypasted straight from what Max White said.

Max White, why aren't you voting anybody, and why isn't it Solifuge? Don't tell me his lurking hasn't got you nervous.

Solifuge-I happen to be a very good fan of the lynch-all-lurkers policy.

For the real meat of that bit, though, someone lurking all day if there are other lurky people. Even if you miss scum they get forced to participate. Unless the slightly-scummy person is scum. But really, everyone looks slightly scummy over the course of a Mafia game. You just need enough activity that "slightly" progresses to a bit more than that as the scum slip up more.

What is your opinion of Jim, Kilakan and Panda? It looks to me that you don't really object to players trying to stir activity, but are instead just trying to use it as a point to make me vote the way you want. Please tell me, why is it suddenly only the mods job to keep people active?

You're accusing me of being scum.  How is this not a good time?

I shall ask what I feel I need to ask when I feel I need to ask it.

[ECrownofFire]

Right, sorry about being gone everyone, I had a lot to deal with and couldn't really get my mind in the game.

Moving on, I'm going to toss my vote on kilakan. Several reasons for this. First of all, something that really ticked me off near the beginning was the "he's scum because he used a smiley" thing. I don't like that and it's a bullshit reason. Taking on a joking attitude doesn't sound like scum at all. Second, he gave Max an ultimatum early on, then collapsed it here. Also a part of that, jakeread1 was obviously new, but kilakan seemed to completely ignore that and go straight for Max. To the point of going after Max for giving advice to jake, even when Vector did the same.

[Vector]

Right.  I misread when I was skimming.  As I said previously, that was a stupid mistake.

You honestly think that I think a vote on you will scare you out of a response?  Despite my asking you to come vote me, if you think I'm scum?  Seriously?  No.  I think you're stupid, but not quite that stupid, and you're on a freight train straight into WIFOM territory.

And no, I didn't know that once you started asking me when I'd join a bandwagon, you suspected me.  I thought you were asking about what one generally does in the case of bandwagon situations.


The statement about it being the mod's job has to do with an argument we had in the subforum a while ago, about lurkers, prodding, and so on.  We determined that, in order to save games, we'd have the mod prod the inactive chumps so that the rest of the players weren't caught up into reams and reams of unsuccessful pressure-voting and policy lynches.  When you have 5-6 people lurking, it is no longer the job of the players to fix things.

Ask some other old-timers about it, if you'd like.  I recommend Pandarsenic or Leafsnail.

I don't object to people trying to stir activity most of the time, no.  I object to you sitting at the end of a three- or four-person bandwagon rather than voting someone you theoretically think is scum.  You want someone to die, you try to kill them.  You make your vote count.

I don't have a solid read on the three people you asked.  This is because, as stated, I had other stuff to do, and in fact could not object because I wasn't here to object to anything.  I'll work on rereading the game later, if I have time.  Right now, I frankly have more important things to do.

[Jim Groovester]

Second, he gave Max an ultimatum early on, then collapsed it here.

How was that an ultimatum?

Do you have any thoughts about anything that's less than three days old?

[Toaster]

Ugh.  I open this thread and all the words run together.  I'll post something when I can be sure it'll be coherent and well thought out.  For now, I'll answer the question out to me.

Jim:

Toaster: I noticed that Max White was in the lead for votes, and then you changed your vote to kilakan. What prompted that change of vote?

I also find the reason you're voting for kilakan weak, since he's pretty vitriolic and risible in general. I don't think that him reacting to Solifuge's vote like that is out of the ordinary at all.

Swapping your vote from the person who's ahead to somebody else with weak justification looks awfully suspicious.

While I'm at it, what's your read on Solifuge? What about Max White?

My vote on Max was mostly an RV.  I kept it on him for a bit because he was bugging me a bit (mostly his opener), but I eventually decided it wasn't scummy because (like I said) he's done it before.  Additionally, he didn't react in a scummy matter from me questioning him.  To answer your last question, my read on him (as of your post:  I have barely read anything past it) is reasonably town.

I haven't played with kilakan before IIRC and I haven't studied his other recent games besides RL2, so I can't speak for his meta.  Tell me: does he remind you of early Dariush in rage levels?

I stopped voting him because I don't think he's scum.  My next pick (and that was a more pressure vote than lynch vote) was kilakan.

Solifuge?  Hmm... he hasn't posted since my last post.  That makes my read on him... bad town.  I remember from a game long past (possibly P16 or P15) that he said it was in his meta to participate more when he had an interesting role or was scum.  I seem to recall that meta holding up in the next few games I played with him.  I don't see that having changed, so I'm applying it now.  It certainly doesn't excuse his bad lurking, but it's something to note.

I'll try to remember to give you an updated read on Max in my next post.  Yell at me if I don't.

[Jim Groovester]

I haven't played with kilakan before IIRC and I haven't studied his other recent games besides RL2, so I can't speak for his meta.  Tell me: does he remind you of early Dariush in rage levels?

Not really. kilakan's just a good old-fashioned asshole. He generally attacks people with lots of hostility, regardless of whether it's warranted or not.

I don't think anyone could compare to early Dariush levels of rage.

[Leafsnail]

The deadline's approaching so I'm changing my vote from pressure to lynch. Pandarsenic's doing a fantastic job of a being a piece of shit active lurker but I'd rather roast Solifuge's ass for lurking than Pandarsenic's.

That makes more sense.  Good.

All right, firstly I want to vote for Solifuge, for setting the example that lurking is ok and you can get away with it, and you can't. I would like to stop that. Don't feel lonely kilakan, the fact that you started demanding I vote for Soli because 'he was lurking' was just a cover up for trying to save your ass has been noted.

So why the hell are you going along with the vote for Soli to save his ass then?

So, Vector.  You vote Max White for completely incorrect reasons (that he was trying to save his ass (turns out his ass wasn't in danger) and that he was bandwagoning (turns out he was breaking a tie which you explicitly said was ok in your post), and admit that you misread.  When this is pointed out, you... sortof skim over it, come up with some new extremely flimsy reasons and just leave your vote on him.  This seems strongly like you made up these new reasons to vote him after you actually voted him in the first place to justify your vote and prevent yourself from receiving any attention.

Moving on, I'm going to toss my vote on kilakan. Several reasons for this. First of all, something that really ticked me off near the beginning was the "he's scum because he used a smiley" thing. I don't like that and it's a bullshit reason. Taking on a joking attitude doesn't sound like scum at all. Second, he gave Max an ultimatum early on, then collapsed it here. Also a part of that, jakeread1 was obviously new, but kilakan seemed to completely ignore that and go straight for Max. To the point of going after Max for giving advice to jake, even when Vector did the same.

So you voted to create another tie, you must have some really good reasons.

...No, wait.  Your first point seems to be "he used a bad reason HE MUST BE SCUM".  Your second point is clearly copied from the two earlier, and what exactly is scummy about an "ultimatum" anyway?  Is it just such a fancy word it must be inherently scummy?  I can't see where the conclusion "Therefore he must be scum" comes about from your third point considering that it's just a criticism of his play (are scum somehow attracted to Max but not to Vector?  Do scum ignore that players are new?).

So why exactly did you create this tie?