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[zkline]

Hi All,
I'm an occasional lurker on the fringes of the DF scene, who has wanted to play for years now but always been stymied by the fact I am totally blind.  some collaborative efforts turned out reasonably well, but even then I feel rather distanced from the actual experience of playing, and it is difficult for a sighted partner to accurately convey information to me.  That's why I'm interested in the topic of possible alternate interfaces.
The text-mode UI offered in the Linux version of DF is a great start, and the primary reason I can't make a more serious effort with it has to do with limitations of the Linux screen readers available more than anything else.  I was under the impression the OS X version also includes this interface, but my copy doesn't seem to.
Someone around here at one point bandied about the idea of an interactive fiction-style interface for game control, with textual descriptions and a parser.  This is an excellent fit for the blind, as IF games are some of the few we can play well, along with most ordinary rogue likes.  The only reason DF doesn't seem to work for us is the SDL it uses to do its default rendering.
So what are your thoughts?  I read the New York Times article on DF yesterday, and it reawakened my interest and desire to be able to play this game.  I can't think of a reason why it shouldn't be possible.
Best and thanks for any input,
Zack.

[thvaz]

I can't think in a way fortress mode could be played as it is today, even with your suggestions. There is just too much happening in the screen at the same time.

Adventure mode, being a classic roguelike, coud be played more easily.

That said, the  possibility of adapting DF's interface for blind people is a answer only Toady can give.

[EnigmaticHat]

The basic problem here is that a given screen contains a massive amount of information, and most of it is meaningless.  There might be hundreds of tiles, most of which is just random grass and trees, yet any detail could prove important.  While it's theoretically possible for a text interface to tell you exactly where everything is, it would be tedious to do so even once, much less every time you took a step.  If you ask me, your best bet is to have a sort of limited bot that asks you what to do, enters the commands for you, and then gives you the result.  For example, a text interface for adventure mode, using such a bot, might go like this:

"You are standing in a field, surrounded by plump helmets.  There is a small wooden house to your north and another to your northwest, a hill to your east, and a vulture above you.  The sun is high in the sky."
attack vulture
"You cannot reach the vulture"
throw dagger at vulture
"The spinning dagger strikes the vulture in the head, and the severed part flies off in an arc!  The vulture has been struck down.  The vulture corpse falls a moderate distance to the ground."
pick up dagger
"You pick up your dagger"
butcher vulture corpse with dagger
"You butcher the vulture corpse.  You see [insert long list of parts here]"
Pick up all vulture parts
"You pick up [same list of parts]"
Go to house
"Which house?  There is a house to your north, and to your northwest."
Go to north house

And so on and so forth.  Do you understand what I'm going for here?  Just targeting the vulture with the dagger would have been a huge pain to do yourself, and it might not have been immediately evident that you couldn't do reach it for close combat.  This way would be much cleaner, and wouldn't waste your time with specific information that isn't necessary.  It would also be difficult to implement, although I can't say how difficult since I lack the skills to do it myself.  One thing that this method has going for it is that the simple interface and style has appeal for those who aren't blind as well as those that are, so willing programmers might not be too hard to find.  Assuming this is even possible.

[Niccolo]

The basic problem here is that a given screen contains a massive amount of information, and most of it is meaningless.  There might be hundreds of tiles, most of which is just random grass and trees, yet any detail could prove important. 

The bet way around that would be to eliminate the extraneous information. If you were to simply not show grass, you'd eliminate a massive pile of useless stuff.

Rock would be really difficult, though. Colour tells us a lot about what we're looking at... though... texture, maybe? I'm not entirely sure about how interfaces for blind people work, unfortunately.

I have to hand it to you, though, zkline. We all set ourselves challenges when we play dwarf fortress - but trying to play it blind? That's just plain awesome. Best of luck to you.

[zkline]

HiAll,
Thanks for the feedback.  I see some of the difficulties in what I proposed, and realize it's not likely to be practical.
THat being said, I wonder if I could give the text UI another try.  The problems I had when using it under Linux were related to my screen reader's being unable to parse Unicode characters, which my Mac reader can certainly do.  In fact, the tiny ASCII sample in the New York Times article read just fine, though I have to wonder how you guys track individual dwarves if they all are the same symbol.  Color?
I guess text mode and collaboration are the best options for me at this point.  Though is there a reason the former isn't included in the OS X version?  I thought it would be.
Thanks for any thoughts,
Zack.

[zkline]

The bet way around that would be to eliminate the extraneous information. If you were to simply not show grass, you'd eliminate a massive pile of useless stuff.

Rock would be really difficult, though. Colour tells us a lot about what we're looking at... though... texture, maybe? I'm not entirely sure about how interfaces for blind people work, unfortunately.

I do have a keyboar command which can tel me the color of whatever I'm focused on, actually.  Granted, I can't  know what that color really looks like, but I don't need to.  I just need to know that "red" represents "dwarf blood" and I'm fine. 
More seriously, I'm determined to play this game one way or another, even if it's only vicariously through others.  I do hope I can give it a shot myself though.
Best,
Zack.

[Niccolo]

HiAll,
Thanks for the feedback.  I see some of the difficulties in what I proposed, and realize it's not likely to be practical.
THat being said, I wonder if I could give the text UI another try.  The problems I had when using it under Linux were related to my screen reader's being unable to parse Unicode characters, which my Mac reader can certainly do.  In fact, the tiny ASCII sample in the New York Times article read just fine, though I have to wonder how you guys track individual dwarves if they all are the same symbol.  Color?
I guess text mode and collaboration are the best options for me at this point.  Though is there a reason the former isn't included in the OS X version?  I thought it would be.
Thanks for any thoughts,
Zack.

Zack, my boy, practicality - or the lack of it - has never stopped a Dwarf Fortress player before. You want to find a way to play this game without your eyes? Someone here with the know-how will be able to help you and we'll be damned if we let a little thing like the practicality of a solution get in our way.

That's the nice thing about these forums, too - we have very few trolls and everyone's nice and supportive.

And, yes. The colour of the dwarf tells us what his job is. There's a little bit of overlap (crafts dwarves is royal blue, for instance, while fishermen are dark blue) but for the most part, colour is the key. Which makes that keyboard command you mentioned a handy tool.


But I must know more about this text UI. Hmm. Research time, I think.

[Rowanas]

Wait.. you're blind, yet can talk on forums and play immeasurably complex computer games on a computer?

I don't know if I'm allowed to say this, but:

Fuck me, that's awesome.

[thvaz]

Soundsense could help as it gives an audio feedback for every annoucement in the game. It may be a start.

[zkline]

Zack, my boy, practicality - or the lack of it - has never stopped a Dwarf Fortress player before. You want to find a way to play this game without your eyes? Someone here with the know-how will be able to help you and we'll be damned if we let a little thing like the practicality of a solution get in our way.

THanks for the encouragement.  I'm glad to know we're a friendly place here.  The text UI exists in Linux, but I'm not sure it does on Windows.  It would look similar to the DFTerm project, actually, perhaps almost identical.
Best,
Zack.

[zkline]

Wait.. you're blind, yet can talk on forums and play immeasurably complex computer games on a computer?

I don't know if I'm allowed to say this, but:

Fuck me, that's awesome.

Okay by me!  I can, indeed, read these forums and play complex games rather well.  In fact, DF is one of only a few games i really *want* to play.  The others are Galactic Civilizations II and King of Dragon Pass.  With those three, my gaming life would be complete. 

[Melagius]

You're so cool I almost want to gouge out my eyes so i can be as cool as you. 

[Anathema]

In fact, the tiny ASCII sample in the New York Times article read just fine, though I have to wonder how you guys track individual dwarves if they all are the same symbol.

You really can't tell individual dwarves apart just by looking at the graphics; color indicates their general profession (you can tell a metalworker from a craftsdwarf, but you can't tell a woodcrafter and a stonecrafter apart), to know more detail than that you have to use a command to bring up a text description of a given dwarf. Most of the game's information is text anyway: the graphics give a sense of the layout/positioning of things, but to get any kind of detail - even to tell different types of rock apart - you rely on text. So theoretically what you're proposing, a text-only Dwarf Fortress, ought to be possible.. but whether it can be implemented with the limited access modders have to the interface, I have no idea, it might require Toady's cooperation.

[zkline]

Hi,
THanks for the clarification about text and detail: I got the impression that was how it worked, but wasn't sure.  I think there's an "examine" command, from what I remember?  That will tell you different rock types and such, I believe.  Dwarves, of course, have tons of menus and keys of their very own. 
As far as suitability goes, is there any way to test this?  I think DFTerm2 is a good test case, as it reads the symbols (at least in the Windows version) from memory, I believe.  Out of interest, has anybody set up a public DF server?  I might try telneting to it…
Anyhow, I appreciate the feedback here.  Here's hoping we can come up with something workable.
Best,
Zack.

[Lectorog]

Yeah, there's a public DFTerm server - the Dwarf Fortress Multiplayer project. It's been made really easy to connect and play with multiple people, but there's rarely anyone on.

Here's the topic link:  http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=87683.0

Direct download link for Linux (copied from the Steam page):  Linux Client. Run "./runmefirst.sh" before playing.