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[Jim Groovester]

Native has never voted for Max.  He was voting for Powder at the time of the unvote.

The sudden dismount from pressing Max White still concerns me, even if the vote wasn't there.

[Jack A T]

Native has never voted for Max.  He was voting for Powder at the time of the unvote.

The sudden dismount from pressing Max White still concerns me, even if the vote wasn't there.

Max: Seriously. If you can't synthesize your own details for one of the supposedly many scenarios the would cause you to change your mind, stop playing Mafia. You obviously don't have the mental capacity to handle hypothetical questions.

Did I say I was insulted?

Not quite a dismount, I think.

[Jim Groovester]

Throwing insults around isn't exactly the same as pressing.

[Powder Miner]

Sorry about being lurky today- My carpet was wet so I coudln;t be in my room for most of the dya, and I'm struggling up a hill of homework.

[NUKE9.13]

Oh, hey.
Mafia.
*facepalms*

1)RVS is not inherently stuipid. However, due to its constant and ritualised use, it becomes almost useless as an actual scum-finding tool. There are other means of starting discussion. This I truly believe. You may disagree. Let us not make this meta-discussion about how to play mafia (a major) part of our scumhunting. (I am opposed to the RVS regardless of my role)

2)Powder Miner had the time to answer a question. He should have had the time to ask one, it only takes a minute. He did not indicate any of the following: that he did not have time to ask a question of his own; that he did not know what sort of questions to ask; that he did not want to ask a question.
Asking random questions is the norm. Not doing so is a deviation from the norm, and requires an explanation of some sort. With no explanation provided, I can only conclude that he was intentionally being less active/readable.

Oh wow, I'm totally lurking for partaking in such horrible activities as sleep and school.

Way to overreact, guy.

Forgot rest of post.
I'm not too  knowledgable of cults, I've  onlyread about them and played them for a day in a Third Prty MAfia (which was won N1 by Assassin and Survivor).
Max, if the game had a third party, what would you want it to be?

Way to do exactly what I berated you for not doing. Was that so hard? Why couldn't you have done this earlier?

...you know, I tried to ask you a discussion worthy question since I knew you hated RVS.

Ahahaha. Wait, you're serious? May I remind you that the question was about meta. Town meta. That shit ain't 'discussion worthy'. 

stuff in favour of RVS

Each to his/her own. As I said, I don't consider this worth arguing about.

By the way...

...We will probably not find the cult leader...

Nice defeatist attitude there; play to win, NUKE, and there's no telling how fast we'll have this wrapped up.  Or sit and pout in the corner with your little "RVS Sucks" banner; the big kids are gonna be busy in the meanwhile.  Unvote.

Please don't insult me for silly reasons. I always play to win. I hate people who don't, or even joke about not doing so. Saying 'we will probably not find the cult leader' is not being a defeatist. It is a statement of fact. D1, there are 8 possible cult leaders. How often have you seen an accurate D1 lynch? Lets be generous, and say that we read each other well enough to reduce the pool of suspects to 4. 1/4 chances only crop up 1 in four times. 'Probably' is more than 1 in 2. Therefore, unless everyone here is a supernaturally good scumhunter, we will probably not find the cult leader. It could happen that we lynch the leader today. Would make the game a bit boring, but a win is a win. But it is more likely that we don't, so it is vitally important that there is a read available for everyone.

Powder Miner, you refuse to play along with the RVS shenanigans. This is because your are the cult leader, attempting to avoid attention.

During a reread, this stood out to me.  NUKE9.13, this seems strangely hasty: you're convinced that Powder Miner is the cult leader because of one post near the start of RVS where he didn't ask any questions.  You can argue that it could be scummy, but I find it to be extremely unconvincing evidence of being the cult leader.  You don't bother asking him a question, either, instead just leaving a weak accusation that can be shrugged off with a short counterargument.

Hang on, what's the opposite of that?
A question can be shrugged of with a quick answer. A flat accusation requires the suspect to supply their own response from whole cloth; I have done none of their work for them. This makes them reveal more of themselves than an answer to a question.

Also, a couple questions: If you suspected one person rather strongly of being the cult leader, but there was a lurker lurking, who would you vote for?  How about if you suspected the former of just being an ordinary cultist?

If I strongly suspected (D1) someone of being the cult leader, I would want them lynched. If I wasn't sure, I would probably waver towards the lurker. Seriously. We can't be having with lurkers today. If I suspected the former of being a cultist, it is D2 or later, and lurkers are less important. Still annoying, but not quite so deadly to the town as they are on D1. So I would probs go for the cultist. Although I would rather still go for a potential cult leader, depending on the numbers.

NUKE: Something about you doesn't sit right with me. It may have been your "playful" claim of being the cult leader, or the unnecessary nonsense questioning of yourself, I'm not sure. But I have a sneaking suspicion that you may be trying to play the "I'm-totally-the-leader,-so-I'll-just-"playfully"-admit-it-in-the-thread-as-a-joke-to-draw-immediate-suspicion-away-from-me" card.

Sorry.
I'ma call this a bandwagon.
Anyway, if it isn't, a response: Seriously, guy, how fucking incompetent do you think I am? If I wanted to keep suspicion away from myself, I wouldn't be making a big fuss about not participating in the RVS, now would I? I may be counting on said suspicion being neglected on account of previous history of mislynches, but I certainly ain't attempting to avoid it completely, and suggesting that I am is ridiculous.


Max, Native, less of the arguing over semantics, eh? Also the insults, very clever, very clever, not useful.

Sorry about being lurky today- My carpet was wet so I coudln;t be in my room for most of the dya, and I'm struggling up a hill of homework.

Ok.
Do you realise why we all need to be extra active today especially?

[Jim Groovester]

Sorry.
I'ma call this a bandwagon.
Anyway, if it isn't, a response: Seriously, guy, how fucking incompetent do you think I am? If I wanted to keep suspicion away from myself, I wouldn't be making a big fuss about not participating in the RVS, now would I? I may be counting on said suspicion being neglected on account of previous history of mislynches, but I certainly ain't attempting to avoid it completely, and suggesting that I am is ridiculous.

A little early for WIFOM, isn't it?

This isn't a defense. What you say you wouldn't do as scum doesn't mean anything, and it bugs me that you busted it out as a defense.

A question can be shrugged of with a quick answer. A flat accusation requires the suspect to supply their own response from whole cloth; I have done none of their work for them. This makes them reveal more of themselves than an answer to a question.

Or they just ignore you because you're not asking them to explain anything.

Max, Native, less of the arguing over semantics, eh? Also the insults, very clever, very clever, not useful.

I like how you're trying to call the shots.

You don't have any stake in the argument. Why do you care about whether it goes on or not?

[Jack A T]

Hang on, what's the opposite of that?
A question can be shrugged of with a quick answer. A flat accusation requires the suspect to supply their own response from whole cloth; I have done none of their work for them. This makes them reveal more of themselves than an answer to a question.

*sighs* NUKE9.13

There's a reason why I focused on the weakness of the accusation as well as the lack of question.  You can give a flat accusation and expect it to get some good work done...IF you actually have solid evidence.  Your accusation is, to be frank, based on some of the weakest evidence I've seen for a while: paraphrased, "Powder Miner didn't ask an RVS question, and is therefore the cult leader".  Now, if you asked why he didn't ask a question, instead of just calling him cult and leaving it there, you could get taken seriously.  More importantly, he would have to say why, instead of being able to just laugh and justifiably ignore you.  You would get more information.  More evidence.  Use questions to steer your targets towards giving you the evidence you need to get scum.

One quick clarification: how sure are you of Powder being the cult leader?

...you know, I tried to ask you a discussion worthy question since I knew you hated RVS.

Ahahaha. Wait, you're serious? May I remind you that the question was about meta. Town meta. That shit ain't 'discussion worthy'. 

Because improving one's ability to read another player is clearly not a worthwhile use of valuable D1 time.  And because town meta has never helped players figure out who is scum.  Ever.

[NativeForeigner]

Not that I disagree with you, but this seems sudden. One moment you're giving Max White no amount of shit and then suddenly you're cool with it.

As silly as it may seem, Max is fitting into the only town meta I have for him. It's very possible and probably likely that that's just how he is in general, but I'm hesitant to call him out as the leader. So yes, there was a slight dismount at the end. The exchange was going nowhere and I had to leave. That and I have little patience for Max's playstyle.

Max: I'm not asking you to predict the future, I'm asking you come up with a hypothetical. Something you apparently can't comprehend. Here's a question you might be able to answer: Why is it that ever since I started questioning you that you've done nothing more than answer questions with a single line and gently poke Toaster once or twice with a follow up question?

Nuke: Call it what you like. I calls 'em as I sees 'em. You got kind of touchy when I called you on that, didn't you? Interesting.

It wouldn't be incompetent to draw attention to yourself as the leader, that's generally a good strategy (as long as it's positive attention, like hunting), but what you did was just blatant, which makes me pretty suspicious of it.

I have no idea what you're trying to say in the second part of your reply, would you mind clarifying?

[Max White]

Max: I'm not asking you to predict the future, I'm asking you come up with a hypothetical. Something you apparently can't comprehend. Here's a question you might be able to answer: Why is it that ever since I started questioning you that you've done nothing more than answer questions with a single line and gently poke Toaster once or twice with a follow up question?

I'm still waiting for replies from Toaster. I don't really think questioning everybody constantly will achieve as much as doing some real work, especially when we have been in this argument for a few hours.

Anyway, how about you humour me, why don't you answer the question? How would you suddenly change your suspicions because you were culted and it turns out you were right about your target? So that I may understand what the hell you mean.

[Toaster]

Max:

I'd think the best way to be converted is also the best way to draw a NK- scum hunt as hard as possible.  If you're on to the cult, they'd want you off their back and on their side.

Doesn't that run the rick of lynching the guy you want to convert you?

Yes, it does.  If I did, great!  Even if I wanted to be converted, I'm still town before it happens, and I'm going to be playing to win.  I can't guarantee I'll be converted, so why would I throw the game to cult in the hope that I would be converted?


On Nuke:  I'm pretty sure he's town, and the cases on him are misguided.  Go read back over Roguelike 3 and Witches' Coven on the days he got lynched- he's playing much the same as he did then.  He's also totally right about Powder, whose only content is below:

Forgot rest of post.
I'm not too  knowledgable of cults, I've  onlyread about them and played them for a day in a Third Prty MAfia (which was won N1 by Assassin and Survivor).
Max, if the game had a third party, what would you want it to be?

Powder:  Who is the cult leader?  Why?


Jim:  Why are you voting Nuke?  Isn't it obvious what he was doing?

[NUKE9.13]

Sorry.
I'ma call this a bandwagon.
Anyway, if it isn't, a response: Seriously, guy, how fucking incompetent do you think I am? If I wanted to keep suspicion away from myself, I wouldn't be making a big fuss about not participating in the RVS, now would I? I may be counting on said suspicion being neglected on account of previous history of mislynches, but I certainly ain't attempting to avoid it completely, and suggesting that I am is ridiculous.

A little early for WIFOM, isn't it?
This isn't a defense. What you say you wouldn't do as scum doesn't mean anything, and it bugs me that you busted it out as a defense.

Uh, I think you may have misread that slightly. This was in response to NativeForeigner claiming I was attempting to shift suspicion away from myself. I don't mention what I would do as scum, simply what I would do not to draw attention to myself. I think that you would be hard pressed to argue that making a big fuss about the RVS being stupid is not drawing attention to myself.

A question can be shrugged of with a quick answer. A flat accusation requires the suspect to supply their own response from whole cloth; I have done none of their work for them. This makes them reveal more of themselves than an answer to a question.

Or they just ignore you because you're not asking them to explain anything.

If they ignore my accusation completely, that tells me something too, does it not? Its a pretty in-your-face accusation. Hard to ignore.

Max, Native, less of the arguing over semantics, eh? Also the insults, very clever, very clever, not useful.

I like how you're trying to call the shots.
You don't have any stake in the argument. Why do you care about whether it goes on or not?

Thank you. I like calling them, so that makes two of us.
Because, whilst reading it, I thought to myself: ugh, this is stupid, why are they filling space with this? When I reread D1, I don't want to have to reread stupid discussions like that.

Hang on, what's the opposite of that?
A question can be shrugged of with a quick answer. A flat accusation requires the suspect to supply their own response from whole cloth; I have done none of their work for them. This makes them reveal more of themselves than an answer to a question.

*sighs* NUKE9.13

There's a reason why I focused on the weakness of the accusation as well as the lack of question.  You can give a flat accusation and expect it to get some good work done...IF you actually have solid evidence.  Your accusation is, to be frank, based on some of the weakest evidence I've seen for a while: paraphrased, "Powder Miner didn't ask an RVS question, and is therefore the cult leader".  Now, if you asked why he didn't ask a question, instead of just calling him cult and leaving it there, you could get taken seriously.  More importantly, he would have to say why, instead of being able to just laugh and justifiably ignore you.  You would get more information.  More evidence.  Use questions to steer your targets towards giving you the evidence you need to get scum.

You play your way, I'll play mine. I believe that there is information to be gleaned from what people feel willing to volunteer, and how they react to seemingly ridiculous accusations. And I know that they work, because I have used this strategy before.
Please refrain from A)Telling me how to play and B)Voting for me... for not playing the right way? Honestly, I can't understand what I have done that is actually scummy.

One quick clarification: how sure are you of Powder being the cult leader?

Marginally more sure than I am of everyone else. Say, 1/4 rather than 1/7. However, I don't like to be passive when scumhunting. Seeming absolutely certain is more likely to make scum panic then seeming slightly suspicious.

Town meta. That shit ain't 'discussion worthy'. 

Because improving one's ability to read another player is clearly not a worthwhile use of valuable D1 time.  And because town meta has never helped players figure out who is scum.  Ever.

Invoking Town Meta as a defence is liable to get so many calls of WIFOM that the forum collapses under the torrent of identical five letter posts. Scum Meta can be more useful, but a noticeable Town Meta, once identified, can easily be copied by a halfway competent scum player. I believe myself to be halfway competent, hence why I do not consider this a worthy topic of discussion.

Nuke: Call it what you like. I calls 'em as I sees 'em. You got kind of touchy when I called you on that, didn't you? Interesting.

What. No. You misread me, sir. I did not get touchy. Also, saying 'Interesting' doesn't scare me. Pray tell what it is you find interesting, because I suspect that you are full of crap and are just saying 'Interesting' to make it seem like you know how to read me.

It wouldn't be incompetent to draw attention to yourself as the leader, that's generally a good strategy (as long as it's positive attention, like hunting), but what you did was just blatant, which makes me pretty suspicious of it.

Generally being equivalent to rarely in this case. A good strategy for a cult leader is to lurk the game away. Pretty much the best strategy, usually. Now, in cases where people are going to be especially touchy of lurkers, in small games like this, that is obviously not the case. However, that does not make the opposite strategy ideal. It can be used, if you think you can really appear that town for the entire game- but it is better to active lurk as much as possible, and have your cultists distract people.

Also, I don't understand this. "(as long as it's positive attention, like hunting)/what you did was just blatant". Blatant being not positive. Of the sort which does not aid the cult leader.

I have no idea what you're trying to say in the second part of your reply, would you mind clarifying?

Uh. Define 'second part'

[Jack A T]

One quick clarification: how sure are you of Powder being the cult leader?

Marginally more sure than I am of everyone else. Say, 1/4 rather than 1/7. However, I don't like to be passive when scumhunting. Seeming absolutely certain is more likely to make scum panic then seeming slightly suspicious.

And with this, I shall unvote.  While I can see why you would do this, it was this, combined with the weakness/absurdity of the accusation, that made me vote for you.  The whole "I refuse to participate in RVS, and thus am voting this guy for not participating in RVS" thing felt somewhat off, too, but you've explained that well enough already.

More after school.

[Dariush]

Would this change if you were the jailer?

Nope. I believe that by the time the situation you described could happen, wasting a potention jailing is dangerous. Much better to lynch the prime leader suspect and if he flips non-leader jail the next most suspicious one.

[Jim Groovester]

Jim:  Why are you voting Nuke?  Isn't it obvious what he was doing?

Yes.

There's other stuff I don't like. I'm picking at it as it comes up, familiar meta or no.

Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?

Do you have something against answering questions clearly?

Seems like you're more interested in talking around people than actually answering questions.

Uh, I think you may have misread that slightly. This was in response to NativeForeigner claiming I was attempting to shift suspicion away from myself. I don't mention what I would do as scum, simply what I would do not to draw attention to myself. I think that you would be hard pressed to argue that making a big fuss about the RVS being stupid is not drawing attention to myself.

Right. So your reply had absolutely nothing to do with what you would do if you were the Cult Leader. Something about competence or something.

You seem to be saying that you're drawing suspicion towards yourself because...? But nevertheless this is something you're doing knowingly and intentionally so we should just ignore it. And also because you've done this in previous games and were mislynched for it, and everybody should remember it.

That's a hard argument to swallow.

Because, whilst reading it, I thought to myself: ugh, this is stupid, why are they filling space with this? When I reread D1, I don't want to have to reread stupid discussions like that.

Then why don't you just skip it on your readthroughs if it turns out to be as stupid as you think it is? Why do you have to get it to stop now?

Dariush, why are you trying to slip by unnoticed with only two posts and no scumhunting?

Extend.

[Powder Miner]

Gurgh. I'd like a replace, a sI have one more mafia going on at once than I can handle, and I missed mos tof the day...