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[NUKE9.13]

Merry Christmas, Mafia Subforum!

I have a gift for you.

I am often told the following:
NUKE, you controversial yet lovable bastard, stop talking about game theory and play the fucking game!
To which I respond: Yeah, ok. I then stop discussing game theory (or at least try to)
But!
A fire burns within me. A fire desperate to dispel the reign of simple and seductive assumptions which plague this subforum which I enjoy so. A fire which wants to discuss game theory until the cows come home, then send the cows away again and continue discussion!

So!
My gift to you, Mafia Subforum, is this, the Mafia Game Theory Discussion Thread.
Where you can espouse any sort of controversial theory you want, argue about it as loudly as you please, without people accusing you of A)Disrupting Gameplay and B)Being scum for espousing a controversial theory.

My hope is that we can actually reach useful conclusions on things, and assemble this knowledge in such a manner as that it can be easily perused by newly graduated members of Beginners (the New School) as that they might gain our (the, for sake of argument, Old School) wisdom, improving the level of play all around and generally making things more fun all around.


This sounds useful, yes? I'm sure you are all sitting around a christmas tree or whatever stuffing your faces with holiday food at the moment- indeed, I am about to go and do so- but when you tire of being kind and friendly and feel like shouting at people for being SO INCREDIBLY STUPID feel free to come in here and tell me what a moron I am for espousing:

Theory: RVS is stupid, and we shouldn't do it. It clutters the day and provides almost no useful information. A mix of day starting strategies (such as light roleplaying or, indeed, game theory discussion) would be better.

[Dariush]

RVS is only pointless in terms of finding scum - it's purpose is starting discussion that can evolve into scumhunting. Without RVS games would simply die off.

[IronyOwl]

Theory: RVS is stupid, and we shouldn't do it. It clutters the day and provides almost no useful information. A mix of day starting strategies (such as light roleplaying or, indeed, game theory discussion) would be better.

I have no idea how either of those are supposed to be anything but less relevant, less effective versions of standard RVS behavior. I'd further like to suggest that the fact that you suggest "a mix" of vague actions, with only two examples given, suggests that you don't actually have an alternative.

[NUKE9.13]

RVS is only pointless in terms of finding scum - it's purpose is starting discussion that can evolve into scumhunting. Without RVS games would simply die off.

There are other methods of starting discussion. RVS takes too long, and people feel compelled to do it.

Theory: RVS is stupid, and we shouldn't do it. It clutters the day and provides almost no useful information. A mix of day starting strategies (such as light roleplaying or, indeed, game theory discussion) would be better.

I have no idea how either of those are supposed to be anything but less relevant, less effective versions of standard RVS behavior. I'd further like to suggest that the fact that you suggest "a mix" of vague actions, with only two examples given, suggests that you don't actually have an alternative.

By mixing 'vague actions' (including, to be fair, random questions), one prevents a complacency from arising. At the moment, a random question is not worthy of discussion. No one looks up at it, no one looks up at the answer (unless the answer is controversial). This is because everyone always knows what is going to happen and what to do when it does. This tells us nothing about how they are feeling. Whilst throwing a mix of things at them means they don't know what to expect or how to react. Well, at the very least, they'll have a harder time of it.

[webadict]

Asking questions during RVS that pertain to nothing (What is your favorite color?) are worthless. They don't give you anything. Infact, randomly voting is more informative than ANY questions. What are you gonna do? Vote someone for saying, "I'd inspect no one, because I hate you all"? There's nothing gained from questions. The worst you could find is a contradiction, or maybe a newbie being stupid.

[Urist_McArathos]

My question, as always, is what would be a better method of starting the discussion and hunting than RVS?  While you do manage to get the conversation rolling often, NUKE, it's usually at the expense of yourself since everyone ends up accusing you of being a jester or scum for your wild-ass idea.  Other times, you're soundly ignored because "that's just NUKE being NUKE".

So, could you posit some alternatives you think would work better in place of RVS?  Because I don't see how roleplaying (light or no) or game theory discussion will lead to scumhunting any more quickly.

[IronyOwl]

By mixing 'vague actions' (including, to be fair, random questions), one prevents a complacency from arising. At the moment, a random question is not worthy of discussion. No one looks up at it, no one looks up at the answer (unless the answer is controversial). This is because everyone always knows what is going to happen and what to do when it does. This tells us nothing about how they are feeling. Whilst throwing a mix of things at them means they don't know what to expect or how to react. Well, at the very least, they'll have a harder time of it.

This is still incredibly vague. How is being "less expected" going to help when the behavior itself doesn't do anything? If someone suddenly pops out and claims scum, for instance, that's unexpected, but I don't see how it's going to unbalance and reveal scum any more than RVS.

Besides which, I don't really see how being "expected" lessens the effectiveness of a lot of RVS questions. Everyone knows being asked about scumteams and favored roles and such is pretty standard, but I don't think many people bother preparing for that ahead of time. Ditto with actual, later-game pressure questions, for that matter- everyone knows there's a chance they'll be asked to explain their vote or defend their reasoning, but that doesn't mean you can't catch scum with those sorts of questions.

Finally, there's the newbie town problem. If scum doesn't know what to expect or how to react to it, how does town? Or rather, how do you tell the difference, and why would there be one in the first place? I'm not sure I see why scum being surprised at RP would react differently than town being surprised at RP.

[Toaster]

Nuke:  I agree with the principle behind your anti-RVS sentiment, but still do it due to lack of anything better.  Accusing someone just for the hell of it has the same inherent problem- if you're the target and you know what the accuser is doing, it's simple to ignore.

Accusing someone of being scum simply because they're opening in a "non-standard" manner is weak play, IMO.  The game has to start somewhere.

[Jim Groovester]

If there was some specific implementation of an alternative to the RVS you had in mind, I would be willing to try it out. Even if it I don't think it's necessarily advantageous.

[webadict]

Massclaiming in Paranormal.

[Toaster]

That's an interesting gambit, and one I'm surprised hasn't been tried.

[Dariush]

Massclaiming takes all the fun out of the game, and too many roles have to fakeclaim. Even RVS is better than that.

[webadict]

Massclaiming takes all the fun out of the game, and too many roles have to fakeclaim. Even RVS is better than that.

Name all of the roles that have to fakeclaim. Now name how many of them are town. Since the town does not have to fakeclaim, scum has to stick with whatever choices they make, as do aliens. Sucks to be them.

[Dariush]

Massclaiming takes all the fun out of the game, and too many roles have to fakeclaim. Even RVS is better than that.

Name all of the roles that have to fakeclaim. Now name how many of them are town. Since the town does not have to fakeclaim, scum has to stick with whatever choices they make, as do aliens. Sucks to be them.

Oh, that's an easy one. Cop, doctor... Wait, we're talking about Paranormal? Well, how about ALL OF THEM? PWV has to fakecalim to be targeted, agent has to fakeclaim not to be targeted, survivor has to fakeclaim so he wouldn't be called fakeclaiming scum...

[Leafsnail]

That might've been a good idea back when you could only have 2 of each role per side or when all the guards were different roles and you had tonnes of them per game.  Now that you can have any number of players per side all doppelgangers can just claim their real role* and be in pretty much no danger of being caught out in that area.  The only people who would be in trouble are aliens, and the exty has plenty of countermeasures** while the other aliens aren't anywhere near as bad as the doppelgangers who you're giving an easy ride.  The only circumstance under which I see this working is if the town happens to have a whole load of guards or something.

* Exceptions: Advanced/ Leader/ tough who can just claim townie/ whatever, and maybe the scientists would lie about their choice of tech.
** Intel, holoform, camoflage, advanced assassin bot to take out problem roles - bearing in mind that he'd be able to tailor his choices based on what the massclaim throws up.