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Author Topic: Other Agent Games and, Agent Sim + RPG = Delicious  (Read 2310 times)

flamoot

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Other Agent Games and, Agent Sim + RPG = Delicious
« on: January 12, 2012, 09:25:49 am »

At its heart, Dwarf Fortress is an "agents sim". This means it's a simulation within which a number of semi-autonomous units each play a role, doing things "for you". Simcity, for instance, is not an agents sim: the Sims is, though it uses a very small simulation and very few agents at a time. (Is Black and White an agent sim, or do your citizens not really do anything? I'm not sure [but your Creature in that is definitely an agent so given that your citizens do have their own little lives including devotions and sacrifices if I recall which your energy levels depended on then, yeah, Black and White is a kind of interesting agent sim])

If Simcity was an agent sim, when you wanted to bulldoze some trees, you'd have to designate them for bulldozing and then you could watch a bulldozer leave some pen and journey to the trees, presumably taking roads when possible, stopping at intersections, getting caught in traffic, or caught in mud, etc. But Simcity is a Sim (no "Agents", just "Sim") where you have direct control

The closest thing I can think of to Dwarf Fortress's particular embodiment of the agents sim genre is Settlers 2, does anyone remember this game? It's an old game and to be clear agent sims aren't common these days so I don't have a more modern example. You laid down roads for your settlers (like digging paths for your dwarves) and one member of your population would man each intersection, fetching items from adjacent intersections and dropping it on their own if that's the way the item was headed. It wasn't perfect but for instance you could pick out a woodcutter and watch him return a log to his hut, then head back out to the nearest patch of trees, and notice a hauler getting the log from his shop to be turned into planks at another one.

Settlers 2 was not as much fun as it could have been and I really feel it was limited by the Agent Sim approach. It meant the game felt very hands-off like it could run itself. So to keep the temperature up there were AI's building comparable settlements elsewhere in the world whose borders could expand faster than yours if you weren't proactive. Then they'd be likely to have a larger military and you could be stuck for expanding, or get conquered. I believe there was also some cursory diplomacy

Dwarf Fortress is a better agents sim than Settlers 2. For a few reasons:

a) crafting [lacking a source of sand, if i need a window to plug some hole in a class fashion, i need to trade for sand, spend ash or lye on potash, manufacture pearlash at a kiln then keep an eye on my sand stocks so I know when to stop...]
b) open pathfinding [Settlers 2's settlers only took a network of roads you laid down from place to place. In DF they will path find freely over open space]
c) control of individual agents [each dwarf can be given any task and then he trains up at it, a sweet RPG element Settlers 2 was missing]

That's just some examples. I think c) hits the nail on the head, though: Agents Sims are strange games, to be honest, and you have to work to make them good games. One quick way is to combine an Agent Sim with an RPG, two great tastes that taste great together: let your units each be an important individual with his own skillsets and, like in DF, his own personality and approach to the world

Let me give you an example of where DF shines [as an example of a really good agents sim]. I've been tracking two dwarven children in my fort, a fat little boy who enjoys the company of others, and a skinny girl who prefers to be alone and cracks quickly under pressure. They turned out to already be Friends. But in finding this out I discovered the social boy had three times more acquaintances than the anti-social girl. So now I knew this about them.

So when the boy, Tun, threw a party, I wasn't as surprised as if the girl had thrown one. It made sense. When the girl attended his party, it made sense even though she's anti-social, because they're friends, and it made me think, Good for her. The third partier was another child who was already acquaintances with the girl and was a new friend of the boy. I didn't look deep into his personality. I was already getting paid off enough for caring at all about just two children. Meanwhile the adults, none of whom came to the kiddie party, were busy militarizing the caverns where the children had started travelling to the furthest-away wells for some reason, risking Troglodyte encounters, to make it safe for the kids to get a drink. This is much richer than anything that ever happened in Settlers 2.

An agent sim can be a really fun type of game as you watch your little people mill and slowly get things done. "Slowly" is practically a key word, in fact, as this type of game can consume inordinate amounts of time offering little more than the satisfaction of -watching things get done-, knowing things are getting done, and finding they've been done. These games can draw you in for hours and hours of just watching your little people. In fact there was a feature in Settlers 2 which was pointless there but fully implemented: you could track your monolithic, unimportant little Settlers (they had no personality, skills, stats or depth) in a pop-out window that would follow them, zoomed-in, as they moved around your settlement. Other than getting a better look at the animations they played when idle (waving, skipping rope) this didn't offer much at all. Your settlers just didn't do that much.

But how many times have I been trying to follow a specific dwarf who was important to me at that point for some reason, and had to pause when he disappears on a stairway, to figure out if he's headed up or down? Or just lose him completely after he traverses some ramps and have to re-zoom to him with the 'u' screen. If, and this is a big if, if we could have the camera follow a dwarf it would be awesome. This is a pretty standard feature in an agent sim where it's assumed you might take an interest in an individual and want to track him. Depending on the importance and the capabilities of your agents this can be valuable for debugging your fort, by letting you figure out where your agents go and what they do.

Give us dwarven follow mode.

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« Last Edit: January 12, 2012, 09:31:27 am by flamoot »
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flamoot

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Re: Other Agent Games and, Agent Sim + RPG = Delicious
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2012, 09:34:36 am »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agent-based_model

I think it's interesting and revealing looking at Dwarf Fortress as an agent sim (a term I can't find on Google tbh but I've heard it before, or I coined it and found it apt, I guess)
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HeWhoCannotBeNamed

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Re: Other Agent Games and, Agent Sim + RPG = Delicious
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2012, 09:35:49 am »

I'm amazed you didn't have Dungeon Keeper / Evil Genius in that discussion. Seem like the closet analogue to DF
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ayoriceball

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Re: Other Agent Games and, Agent Sim + RPG = Delicious
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2012, 09:44:49 am »

I'm amazed you didn't have Dungeon Keeper / Evil Genius in that discussion. Seem like the closet analogue to DF

Agreed.

DF's pathfinding is still somewhat flawed.

Being able to follow a dwarf would be very helpful.
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flamoot

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Re: Other Agent Games and, Agent Sim + RPG = Delicious
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2012, 10:07:21 am »

I'm going to put a follow-cam/autocam in the suggestions forum

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=98904

done
« Last Edit: January 12, 2012, 10:21:52 am by flamoot »
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flamoot

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Re: Other Agent Games and, Agent Sim + RPG = Delicious
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2012, 10:21:18 am »

Was dungeon keeper an agent sim? I can't remember if you had things walking around in that or not. I played it for a little while though. Of course, DF reminds me of that too
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ledgekindred

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Re: Other Agent Games and, Agent Sim + RPG = Delicious
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2012, 10:23:57 am »

Remove the part where you are asking the devs for follow-mode and this is an awesome abstract of a really great research paper!
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flamoot

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Re: Other Agent Games and, Agent Sim + RPG = Delicious
« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2012, 10:24:39 am »

Thanks dude! This subject's obscure enough to be untrampled ground (these agent games and what they are and do) but deep and rich enough to make for a thesis, you're right
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kaenneth

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Re: Other Agent Games and, Agent Sim + RPG = Delicious
« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2012, 11:40:50 am »

Tropico 3/4 is the closest commercail game to DF I've played.

You have to wait for builder citizens to build things like farms, factories, etc., and you have to pay them, keep them happy, etc.
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flamoot

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Re: Other Agent Games and, Agent Sim + RPG = Delicious
« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2012, 11:59:22 am »

Cool

I'd like to play with the dwarven economy! It's too bad it was removed. I like the ideas that

a) over a certain population you no longer have to micro-manage bedroom assignments
b) you have to have less-valuable rooms available as a ghetto for dwarves who do less work
c) minting coins could have a point

Any thoughts about that? I never played with it so I don't know why it was considered broken enough to take out.
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HeWhoCannotBeNamed

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Re: Other Agent Games and, Agent Sim + RPG = Delicious
« Reply #10 on: January 12, 2012, 12:11:58 pm »

Was dungeon keeper an agent sim? I can't remember if you had things walking around in that or not. I played it for a little while though. Of course, DF reminds me of that too
Very similar to Dwarf Fortress, in Dungeon Keeper you paint where you'd like dug and then your imps come along and dig later. Also, you place "ghost' outlines of doors, traps etc, dependent on what's in stock, and then the imps drag the item from the workshop to place it.

There are a few differences, e.g. when you place room types they place instantly, but this is no different to The Sims (the sims only live in your house, they don't construct anything). You do need to wait for the imps to "claim" tiles to your color before you can build in a location.

Also, there are creature types in Dungeon Keeper which can do specific tasks, unlike Dwarf Fortress. Imps build, mine etc, warlocks/dragons research spells, trolls/bile demons make doors and traps in the workshop. Some creature types will work in different rooms if you place them there, but won't do it automatically.
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flamoot

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Re: Other Agent Games and, Agent Sim + RPG = Delicious
« Reply #11 on: January 12, 2012, 12:38:32 pm »

That's probably why I liked dungeon keeper so much. I only played it at work and don't remember much about it except I sunk a number of hours in and had a decent amount of fun
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Babylon

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Re: Other Agent Games and, Agent Sim + RPG = Delicious
« Reply #12 on: January 12, 2012, 01:51:56 pm »

Cool

I'd like to play with the dwarven economy! It's too bad it was removed. I like the ideas that

a) over a certain population you no longer have to micro-manage bedroom assignments
b) you have to have less-valuable rooms available as a ghetto for dwarves who do less work
c) minting coins could have a point

Any thoughts about that? I never played with it so I don't know why it was considered broken enough to take out.

You don't need to micromanage rooms.  Just build them and don't assign them.
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Karnewarrior

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Re: Other Agent Games and, Agent Sim + RPG = Delicious
« Reply #13 on: January 12, 2012, 03:07:27 pm »

Cool

I'd like to play with the dwarven economy! It's too bad it was removed. I like the ideas that

a) over a certain population you no longer have to micro-manage bedroom assignments
b) you have to have less-valuable rooms available as a ghetto for dwarves who do less work
c) minting coins could have a point

Any thoughts about that? I never played with it so I don't know why it was considered broken enough to take out.

You don't need to micromanage rooms.  Just build them and don't assign them.
Yeah, although make sure to assign your mayor a room first before he passes out in the ghetto and claims a hovel for himself and complains about it.

Dwarves are dumb.
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Re: Other Agent Games and, Agent Sim + RPG = Delicious
« Reply #14 on: January 12, 2012, 08:53:51 pm »

Coins were a problem, since DF does not allow merging stacks of items after creation; so instead of a dwarf carrying 100 copper coins, you would end up with something like: (IIRC)

12 copper coins
2 copper coins with a coating of water
1 copper coin
6 copper coins with a coating of elf blood
3 copper coins
1 copper coin with a coating of water
19 copper coins with a coating of dwarf blood
37 copper coins
7 copper coins
...

Which caused massive lag.
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